Shift & Thrive: CEO Insights on Driving Change

S&T - Michele Johnston
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[00:00:00] In today's business world, change is the only constant, and mastering transformation is the ultimate key to success. Welcome to Shift and Thrive. I'm your host, Natalie Nathanson.

Each week we'll bring you conversations with CEOs who delve into how they successfully drove critical change in their organization. This show is sponsored by Magnitude Consulting, bringing you the thinking power of a growth consult. And the getting it done, power of a full service B2B marketing agency.

Natalie Nathanson (2): Welcome

to a special episode on Shift and Thrive. Today's episode is a little different because my guest is someone I have the privilege of working with every day. Michelle Johnston is the director of digital delivery and our AI lead at Magnitude Consulting, bringing a practitioner's perspective and deep expertise across digital marketing, demand generation strategy, and the rapidly evolving ways B2B [00:01:00] companies need to reach and influence today's buyers.

And while I know she's extremely humble and would probably rather I skip this part, I feel like I owe it to her to give her a full and proper introduction. So with that, she is a digital marketing guru who spent nearly three decades helping organizations navigate, uh, major waves of digital transformation, from the early days of the web to today's AI-driven environments.

She has technical roots, having started her career in web development before moving into marketing and leadership, and has worked across digital strategy, marketing operations, customer experience, and website transformation for a broad range of organizations. She's been an integral part of my team for over six years, and today she leads our digital delivery team while spearheading our AI initiatives.

Ultimately, her work is about helping B2B

SMBs drive

revenue impact through digital marketing and helping organizations modernize their go-to-market operations for a rapidly changing landscape. Michelle Johnston, welcome to the [00:02:00] show.

Michele Johnston: Thanks, Natalie

Natalie Nathanson (2): Very much looking forward to diving into the conversation, and I'd like to kinda start at the beginning.

I know you've had a front row seat to nearly three decades of change in digital marketing, and there's been quite a lot of change, um, from the early web to the rise of search engines and then social media and marketing automation and now AI. So looking back across that evolution, can you share which, uh, which changes do you feel have actually mattered the most?

Michele Johnston: a lot of times when we think about, like, ch- digital transformation, we think very, like, technically, but really it's all been behavior-based, right? People, the way people function, um, how they search for things, um, and what they expect. So really, a, most of the kind of shifts have been led by, you know, human behavior and, um, what people expect out of, you know, products that they use or, you know, tools that they use

Natalie Nathanson (2): Yeah. I mean, you're making me think [00:03:00] about, uh, about those changes and kind of what that's meant, right? Like websites,

with being

able to kinda self-serve and get information online or be shopping in a store and getting that same information elsewhere. Social media, uh, right, has definitely had significant changes.

Um, I'm curious if there's any that you feel, uh, like really changed, uh, had the biggest impact on, like, how you do marketing.

Michele Johnston: Marketing is all about getting in front of the right person at the right time. And so I think maybe, honestly, like things have shifted so much over s- I'm trying to get... I think it's a little scary to think about 30 years, but this last 12 months, the shifts of how people find vendors or do their research for business related purchases and, um, compare and contrast them.

I think this is one of the biggest behavior shifts we've seen [00:04:00] because it is somewhat upending a lot of the ways that we have marketed consistently over the last, you know, s- s- like 10 years. So it's changing search, it's changing, um, paid search, it's changing organics, but really kind of impacting everything that we do as marketers on a day-to-day basis

Natalie Nathanson (2): Yeah. It's so interesting 'cause I do think that's one of the reasons why like, you know, it's easy to say that whatever is the thing happening in the moment is the thing that feels so different.

Uh, but I do feel like AI does feel fundamentally different, and it's not just another kind of channel or platform. Like it's- changes to kind of how the work gets done. I think we're seeing the pace of change is much faster. Like this is getting adopted much faster than some of the other things, uh, in the past.

Um, and then an area you touched on around like how buyers, uh, consume information is changing and how we as marketers can do things are changing. It's like both sides of go-to-market are changing [00:05:00] at the same time. I often talk about like a moving target, right? 'Cause as you're kind of evolving, like how you run your, your marketing and operations, right?

Like the audience is continuing to change too. Um, so it is hard to kind of keep, uh, keep pace with that. I'm wondering if that brings anything else to mind for you.

Michele Johnston: one of the things I think it's important to keep in mind is that, you know, it's easy when we say people's b- search behavior and AI usage behavior ch- is changing to focus on the technologies when we should be focusing on the people. Like, behind the search, behind the prompt, there's a person who's doing that work, who's trying to solve something.

And so one way that it's very easy to get off track, like, and start chasing, like, shiny little things is looking at the technology, um, behind search or behind, you know, AI ingestion and things like that instead of thinking about, like, okay, this is a human being on the other end who's trying to [00:06:00] solve something.

What's the best way I can help them solve their problem with, you know, the product or service I'm selling? So it's really easy to kind of, like, distract yourself and with that then you're gonna lose track of, like, where the ball is

Natalie Nathanson (2): Yeah. I think it's such an important point. Uh, and, you know, every organization talks about being kind of customer-focused and putting the customer first.

Uh, but that simple lens of, uh, kind of what is this

person trying

to do? What are they trying to learn and understand, is a really good lens. Uh, where do you... uh, like, where does that show up most?

If you're

talking to a CEO about, like, how that permeates the marketing, what are some of those places it needs to, uh, kind of be thought through?

Michele Johnston: If we had to put a percentage of time spent on certain things, I would say from a marketing perspective, more time needs to be spent on understanding the prospect and what they need. A lot of times, I mean, we see this in, in [00:07:00] marketing, it's sometimes it's like self-focused.

Here's how we're great, this is how we're wonderful. It's about solving their problem. And so, uh, it's like I said, it's easy to get distracted with like the technical. So think about it in terms of 20% of like, for example, SEO or AEO optimization, 10 to 20% of that is optimizing

the, the, a website. 80% of that is the content you're writing and is it actually resonant?

Do people care? Are people searching for that? So it's really easy to focus on that 20%. Do we have an elements.txt file? Do we have like, do we have schema data? W- are you even saying the right thing to the right person w- during that sales process, uh, or during the, you know, research process? So kind of making sure that the team is really focused in on solving the problem, the pain points, removing the barriers, um, to moving forward, um, in the, you know, buyer's process

Natalie Nathanson (2): Right away with [00:08:00] the kind of 80% content, I think of like SEO in the early days of like the keyword stuffing and now like AI slop, right? Write me a blog post on XYZ. Uh, and then companies wonder why that's not performing for them, right? Like, that's not, uh, about the buyer and kind of what they're- what they're grappling with and- something kind of nuanced and insightful that you can share with them that aligns back to your solution. Um, I wanna broaden a bit 'cause we are talking about kind of search,

uh,

behaviors, and I know you've been working with, uh, some of our clients to kind

of talk

through and educate them on kind of what is changing in kind of the search landscape.

Uh, can you talk a bit about, you know, what organizations need to be thinking about differently?

Michele Johnston: Relative to search, um, it's shifting so quickly. It's, it's hard to c- ... It's a little bit hard to keep a pulse on it. Um, I would be wary of people who know the answer. Um, that would be the first thing, right? 'Cause we're all looking for answers and figuring out [00:09:00] what to do. And so I would be a little bit cautious when someone knows exactly what that answer is today.

Um, I think to me, the most important thing to be able to do is be like, "I don't know. Let's test out some things and figure it out," because there is just a, such a huge shift in behavior. Um, I ... We may have to be looking at different metrics or, um, become a little bit more comfortable with metrics that don't exist.

Um, so for example, back in the day y- we would run billboards, right? Or you did television spots. Like, you would measure that much differently than we measure digital advertising, which has very specific numbers of impressions and clicks and things like that. Um, because the buyer journey of where they get information, what they do with it, and then where they go, and then how they end up on your website and in a meeting with you is shifted s- dramatically, that is not linear.

And the numbers and metrics that we have in our system may or [00:10:00] may not really reflect the true buyer journey of how they got there

Natalie Nathanson (2): I wanna come back to the, the topic around metrics because I think there's a lot for us to, uh, to unpack there. Um, before we do that, I wanna ask a bit about, you know, either what questions you're getting from, from clients. Like, w- are you seeing resistance to kind of shifting some of these behaviors?

Michele Johnston: I'm not at all hearing any resistance to it necessarily. I think people really do understand it's shifting. I think there's a lot of fear, um, because we were very comfortable

with

the old way of doing SEO and driving traffic. It didn't change. You know, it was pretty consistent for quite a while, so we became comfortable in that.

And so I think it's a little bit of discomfort in this change. Um, you know, uncertainty always presents itself as an- anxiety, so I think we're seeing a lot more of that

Natalie Nathanson (2): And before we move off this topic, [00:11:00] can you talk a bit about kind of the, the zero-click, uh, kind of phenomena and how that is, uh, playing into this world?

Michele Johnston: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I think I saw something recently. It's up to 70% of searches on Google do not end in a click. So people are using search, but the platform, Google and Bing, um, have changed so dramatically that it's not necessary to click through to a website anymore. So just simply relying on Google for your business as a source of leads is really dangerous.

You really need to diversify where you are and where you're getting, um, your prospects. And it's ... I think it's only gonna continue to Get worse if that's how you're looking at it, right? Um, so that's gonna continue to change. So we kind of have to shift. People are using it to search. I have a suspicion that a lot of people are doing research through Google to [00:12:00] find companies and then creating a list and then using AI to, like,

compare

these. Tell me who's better at this, tell me who's better at that. So it's still part of their buyer journey, but just how they're using it is what's changing

Natalie Nathanson (2): I think, you know, you feel the fear. You're kind of looking at things differently. Then you see a decrease in the numbers. That creates more fear, It just creates kind of this uncertainty.

But I think we are seeing a bit of this kind of what's old is new again, right? Because it's, it's so easy to create content, automatically post it online. Like, there's just so much noise in the digital world, and the reality is we live in a heavily digital world, so there's no getting away from that.

We're not, uh, eliminating digital marketing by any means. Um, but I think we're also seeing clients having success with, you know, in-person events, and hosting roundtable dinners, and, and things like that again, um, that you kind

of break

the mold and really figure out what you can do differently, uh, than, you know, what your competitors are doing, or how can you kind of humanize those [00:13:00] interactions.

Hey, this is Natalie, your Shift and Thrive host. After chatting with lots of CEOs, one thing is crystal clear. Leveling up your company means having a killer Go-to-market strategy. That's what my crew at Magnitude Consulting does every day. If you're trying to step up your marketing game, whether it's strategizing, accelerating your pipeline, expanding into new markets, or getting into AI and automation, let's talk.

No pitch, no pressure. Just good conversation. Visit shift and thrive podcast.com/natalie to schedule a time. Can't wait to connect.

Natalie Nathanson (2): So Michelle, I wanna switch gears a little bit and talk about how, uh, leaders evaluate marketing performance, because I think in the context of all of these things, uh, that are changing, like the, the ability we have

to connect

like every marketing activity cleanly to a lead, an opportunity, a sale, is increasingly challenging.

Not that it was ever easy, but I think all of these kind of nonlinear, like, buying [00:14:00] habits are, uh, driving more of that, right? If people are doing their research through peer groups and review sites, and now LLMs, um, and all of these things happen, like long before someone is filling out a form or, or talking to sales.

There's like all the reasons that it's hard to, to draw that straight line. Um, so I wanna talk a little bit about how like CEOs and other leaders should decide and

like understand

whether their marketing is working, uh, when kind of there isn't like a very kinda simple, uh, data answer to that.

Michele Johnston: There's not a simple answer, and there's so much in addition to zero click and people's behaviors. We're also looking at, like, cookie lists, we're not able to track people the way we used to be able to. GDPR and other privacy regulations are... We're seeing a huge impact on that of just what data we're able to even get. I would say the first thing is to do is look at lead generation from marketing sources at the top level [00:15:00] rather than, um, digging i- uh, especially for a CEO to be digging in at w- what's paid media delivering, what's search, what's this, what's that, what, what are... Looking at it from a more holistic standpoint because ultimately we are gonna be getting leads coming in that have no attribution.

They're gonna look like, um, direct traffic or unknown sources. They might look like organic searches, but who knows all the different places they interacted with us. So top line lead generation, um, and quality of those leads as well.

And again, I think it's a little bit of like sitting with the discomfort of not knowing exactly what might be contributing to those.

There certainly are some platforms that could do multi-touch attribution, um, if you have the budget for something like that. But for those of us who don't, um, kind of shifting how we're able to, [00:16:00] um, look at, you know, fr- just from an overall perspective where those leads are coming from.

Natalie Nathanson (2): Yeah. Well, and I know you and I talked about this, uh, in the past of just, you know, how did we get to where we are?

And I think, you know, marketing was notoriously, like, a bit of a black box and coming kind of from the advertising world, like, of decades ago where you just had to put stuff out there and kind of hope that it had an impact, or larger companies could run these, like, big brand, uh, brand awareness studies that's, like, it was never accessible to to smaller companies just

because of

the, the numbers and the dollars and all of that.

Um, and then during the COVID era when everyone moved online, and all of a sudden, uh, you couldn't track a lot of stuff. And so little was happening offline that I think a lot of, uh, like, confidence, uh, and attention went towards, uh, like, digital metrics. And so I think that just exacerbates why kind of the challenges we're facing today, uh, in some ways kind of make it seem [00:17:00] like kind of pointing a finger at, uh, at, at marketing or, "Oh, we must...

There must be a, an easier, better way to do our reporting that our team hasn't figured out, um, that's gonna make it kind of very obvious." Um, I know you've talked about that kind of gumball, uh, phenomena. Uh, if you wanna speak to that because I think that factors into kind

of just

the, the mindset going into kind of where, where and how marketing has an impact and kind of how that's viewed.

Michele Johnston: Yeah. So digital marketing, the good thing

is that

we can get all sorts of metrics. The bad thing is that we can get all sorts of metrics. And it's easy to become comfortable with looking at those. Um,

but yeah,

you can't just run one ad and get one lead. It just doesn't work like that. And I think if we step back, think about how, you know, I, I certainly in how I function, if I do a search, I find a company, I'm likely not, like, filling out that lead form immediately.

But yet that's the expectation, even [00:18:00] though we don't behave that way ourselves. Um, so it's not dollar in, dollar out. We do this channel, we get something out. I'm an endurance athlete. And so for example, with triathlon, there's swim, bike, run, right?

And when you're training for an Ironman, you don't do the full distances each, of each of those. When you build your training plan, this week's training builds next week's workouts, right? And then you g- you grow to the point where you're able to do the event. Everything is cumulative. All your training is cumulative.

So I think we have to look at marketing in that same way of all of the work that we're doing is cumulative. Something might get that, um- You know, check mark, oh, we got the lead in through email or whatever it was, but we need to... And everything else built around it is helping for that to happen. And y- really this is marketing 101 back decades, [00:19:00] reach and frequency.

So we need to get out in front of people, and they need to be able to see your message a certain number of times before they make that connection. So kind of like going back to basics, I feel like. You know, let's make sure we're talking to the person in their language, uh, about their pain points. Let's make sure we're reaching out to them in multiple channels, multiple ways, that we're present in the places where they are when they are researching that issue that they're having

Natalie Nathanson (2): I think this starts to take me down the path of talking about, like, lead generation and demand generation versus, uh, versus brand awareness, uh, which I think will be an interesting topic for us to get into. I have one other, uh, area on metrics that I wanted to, uh, ask you, and I think we've, you know, encountered this situation where, you know, an organization might not have had a lot of comprehensive, uh, marketing.

They might have one or two salespeople. Um, but so they know, leadership knows they don't have, like, full [00:20:00] visibility into kind of what's happening. Maybe someone set up

Google Analytics

a number of years ago, hasn't touched it too much since. So if someone knows they don't have that kind of visibility, like, where would you recommend they start?

Like, what are some of those kind of fundamentals or baselines to get in place?

Michele Johnston: So taking a look at web traffic and where people are coming in now. Um, taking a look at your leads and are we able to tell at all where they're coming in now?

And so kind of leveraging that as a baseline, just to kind of level set of what looks like might be working now. Um, the next thing I'd do, honestly, would rather than looking at the metrics internally, I would start doing the user research of where are they. Who's your audience? Where are they? 'Cause some might be on Reddit, some might be on, at events.

You know, like, really g- kind of truly understand, um, where they live. And then go back to your metrics [00:21:00] and kind of overlay that. Like, are we, have we know how our prospects are behaving? Um, do we have programs in place to hit those? And do we already see any potential, um, leverage that we have in those areas?

Natalie Nathanson (2): So let's talk about, uh, you know, the brand versus demand because I think as we're talking about, you know, what leaders can measure, what actually drives growth, I think this is the conversation that, that keeps coming up.

And I'll admit, I've had a little bit of a, a shift in my own mindset, uh, over the, r- recent years, uh, where I sit on this debate. Um, but just for the listeners' benefit, like put simply, we know this kind of brand versus demand argument is that demand generation is about creating opportunities now. Brand building, on the other hand, is more about making sure buyers know, uh, like which companies to trust so that you get into the consideration set, like when someone's getting ready to act.

Um, and [00:22:00] despite everything we just shared about metrics, like demand-oriented activity is generally, like, somewhat easier to track, whereas brand investments, uh, go over a longer period of time. They don't, like, show up as neatly in a dashboard. Um, but, and I know we've talked about this, like, uh, it's becoming, like, more and more, uh, important, right, as the market becomes noisier and trust is harder to earn.

Um, so wanted to just see how, you know, how do you think about the role of brand, uh,

and,

you know, what does that look like when it's not, like, immediately visible in the numbers?

Michele Johnston: Brand absolutely supports lead gen. When you are only running lead gen and demand gen, you are really focused at a very particular point in time in that buyer's journey, and you might have missed that window. B2B buyers are somewhere between 65 and 70% through their buying journey by the time they make their [00:23:00] shortlist and reach out to companies to talk to.

You- marketing's job is to get on those lists. If you're waiting until that last m- few days when they're about to pick up the ph- you've c- you've kind of missed that window. And again, I guess back to marketing 101, right? Um, only a certain percent of your, um, total market audience is ever in market for your services at any given time.

That doesn't mean you should ignore them, right? That's why cars, dealer, you know, cars advertise year-round even though, like, people are only in the market during a very short period of time, 'cause you want that brand recognition. So yes, it is, like, long term, but if you're only thinking constantly short term, you're really not thinking of the bigger picture.

Um, it's really important to make sure that that brand piece is in there. And I kind of feel like brand versus demand is more of, like, a spectrum than [00:24:00] two particular buckets, right? So if you have a lot of your, um, budget in terms of people, time, and dollars in, in demand gen, there's po- there's some channels and some other things you can do that might be a little bit more along the lines of brand, a little bit less demand, but still give you kind of that bump, you know?

So you don't have to necessarily spend across the entire spectrum of brand and demand, but having both of those, like, brand 100% supports demand generation

Natalie Nathanson (2): I think the other component to that that I often think about that I think isn't maybe as talked about is the sales side of things, right? That by not investing in brand, you're putting a greater burden on your salesperson, sales team. Um, and I've seen like

a strong

sales rep join a company and then realize that like they Especially if it's someone who came from like a bigger company with some brand awareness, that like every conversation they [00:25:00] have, they're fighting harder to get that first conversation. It starts one step further back, uh, than, than what they expected, uh, because they're the ones that then need to talk about like

who the

company is, like prove that, that credibility, convince the buyer that it was even worth like taking that first call versus that's like such a important place for marketing to provide that air cover.

Um, and especially in a world where, you know, anyone can spin up a company, a website, like look like they have something legitimate even when they don't, like it's gonna be increasingly harder for buyers to know who to trust. And so by kind of being out there, uh, you're really supporting, uh, sales from having to do that kinda that legwork, or just missing opportunities altogether.

Michele Johnston: , The philosophical line between marketing and sales I feel like is getting very, very fuzzy because when people are doing their research and they're making their shortlist, um, they have just so much more information and tools available to them to do that work. The more you can [00:26:00] put out, um, on your site, the marketing team in any- uh, not just on your site, but anywhere, um, that is going to help to, um, not just talk about who your company is, but how it's gonna solve the issues.

Like te- even technical sheets, anything like that that's gonna help remove those sales barriers. Whatever the sales team is hearing as a barrier in their phone calls or an objection, address that in your marketing. Remove those now because that's just gonna help the prospect to do their research and get you onto that shortlist.

So it's getting a little fuzzy. I think a lot of people are, um... If you don't have that information out, they can't do their research. I think people are spending the same amount of time doing the research. I don't think they are necessarily putting in as much effort. And then this is gonna sound a little bit weird, but it's our job to make sure that all of those [00:27:00] materials and all of that information and all of those barriers are addressed because if we don't address them, they're just simply not gonna pick up the phone, right?

If it's not available on our site, if it's not a- being absorbed and, and surfaced in AI when they're doing those comparisons, we're just not gonna make the shortlist

Natalie Nathanson (2): Right. Well, those are the things that never even show up in the metrics to begin with, because th- they're never making it onto anyone's- radar, so it's a missed opportunity you never even realized you missed. Um, the other thing you were making me think about with the blurring lines between sales and marketing is, like, sales historically was kind of the one-to-one, and marketing was the one-to-many. And I think part of that line blurring is, like, with sales automation now, sales can kind of b- do the one-to-many, and marketing with kind of personalization at scale can, can do the kind of one-to-one even though it's not really one-to-one.

So I think that those blurred lines, uh, come at it from that perspective, too. And I think that harms things, too, because when sales [00:28:00] is doing the one-to-many without, like, good, uh, the personalization behind it, they're turning off their audience. When marketing is doing the, the kind of fake personalization, I'll call it, like, without the right kind of data and insights behind it, uh, they're having a similar, uh, similar kind of impact.

Michele Johnston: Yeah. And you have a situation where you might, your left arm and your right arm might be doing two completely different things if there's no, um, synergy between, um, what those efforts look like

Natalie Nathanson (2): , I'd love to shift the conversation and, uh, talk a little bit more on the personal side. You talked about being a, you know, a competitive athlete, and I've always, uh, very much admired and love hearing the stories of all the different adventures that, uh, that you've been on.

Uh, but I know you've talked about kind of parallels between kind of being an endurance athlete and, and business. Um, would love to hear is there, like, a story from that side of your life, uh, that has stayed with you.

Michele Johnston: It's one of my favorite ways to, like, draw parallels between what I [00:29:00] do for my work and what I do, um, outside of work. Um, yeah, so I've done over 100 endurance events. Um, lots of triathlon, couple Ironman, lot of, like, longer endurance events. And probably the thing that sticks with me the most that I wish I could package and sell to people is that the biggest thing that really helps with y-

you know,

in long-term endurance events is just consistency.

For the ma- vast majority of, like, workouts, they're all just kind of like, hmm, kind of boring, not, um ... They're not big efforts, right? Like, so maybe 10% of them are like, "Whoa, I felt great. That was fantastic." And then another 10% are like, "Oh my God, what am I even doing? Why am I doing this to myself?" But most of it's just like I go out and do the workout, and then done and go on with my [00:30:00] day.

But it is the consistency of doing that day after da- day, week after week, month after month, that gets you to completing an Ironman or a 10K swim or something like that.

I really feel marketing's very similar to that, where it's, you know, we're doing a lot of different things, and not everything is immediately measurable, but if you don't do those things, it's gonna hinder your, um, your goals and your outcomes

Natalie Nathanson (2): Yeah. I'm curious, and again, bringing it back to kind of the marketing side when we were talking about measurement, uh, I would imagine with this, uh, kind of training for an endurance event doesn't happen overnight, so you're doing these small things that build over time.

Like, how do you know and kind of trust that you're doing the right things, that you're pushing yourself hard enough, or not too hard too early? Like, how do you, how do you find that balance?

Michele Johnston: After nearly 20 years in endurance, I'm gonna say the answer is that [00:31:00] experience for me. Um, but for a lot of people, they don't know. You kind of do have to trust the process. Having someone there to support you, like, I could- I don't know that I could have done that without a coach, without having someone who, um, was giving me those, the guidance and the direction, and who was, um, the rock that I needed when I was just absolutely questioning everything

Natalie Nathanson (2): is there a favorite kind of event or something you competed in that, uh, that comes to mind that you could share?

Michele Johnston: , A couple things. One, I did a 10K swim in 2020 with a friend for fun. Um, that was during COVID, and it was kind of like we didn't plan for it, but we were doing a ton of swimming, so we just decided to go for it, and that was a lot of fun 'cause it was just us out there, and our friends in kayaks, and it was a blast.

Um, and last year... So I'm starting to get more into, um... And actually, I think [00:32:00] this kind of relates into marketing as well. I'm starting to get into mountain biking more. So I did this really super fun race in northern Michigan called The Crusher, and it was, like, 55 miles. Um, so it was like seven to eight-hour event, but it was so far.

You can't get more off the grid than the Keweenaw Pe- Peninsula up in northern Michigan. There's no connectivity. So it's like, they're like, "Here's the route. Good luck." There's no... You can't call anybody. Like, literally, there's no one to call if you fall, get hurt, or whatever. So that was just fun because I was super out of my comfort zone to be just out there by my...

Like, no one but myself to kinda finish.

Natalie Nathanson (2): Do think about, like, how, uh, and I s- said this often, is like how much energy there is, like, on race day or something that, like, something I possib- c- couldn't possibly think I would be able to complete. Like, you just have a different energy when there's people around you.

So I think, like to that [00:33:00] point, like when you show up and you, uh, I don't know, have only yourself, there's, I'm sure, a lot of, I don't know, like mental games, m- kind of tricks or whatnot that, that, uh, are helpful. Are there any- anything that works for you, or any mottos or anything that you tell yourself?

Michele Johnston: You just kind of learn how to suffer with endurance sport. It's like if you- people who are successful are the people who can survive the suffering the most, and when you do something harder and harder and harder, it resets your brain of what hard means,

Natalie Nathanson (2): There's, like, an important lesson there in being comfortable being, getting comfortable being uncomfortable, right? Because, you

know, this

podcast is all about transformation, right? Whether it's, like, the organization, the department, the, the person, um, and a lot of that is, like, you're n- it's uncomfortable.

You're pushing it through some very different things than, you

know, what

you've experienced Yeah. Anything could have gone wrong that day. Um, luckily it didn't really. Uh, but yeah, getting comfortable and trusting yourself and [00:34:00] learning, learning from yourself as you go

Yeah Um, I wanna close out the conversation, Michelle, with something I like to ask all of my guests.

Uh, and that is, what is the best piece of advice you've received that still influences you today?

Michele Johnston: Yeah, so my dad always used to tell us, "Keep your options open." That's... It's almost like the family joke. Like, that's always the thing that he's, um, been telling us. And, and now as a grown-up, I understand what he was talking about. But just always making sure that, like, you leave room for anything to happen.

You know, don't close doors, don't burn those bridges. K- keep your options open

Natalie Nathanson (2): I

love that, and I can see how that can permeate so many different facets of life, so good advice. Uh, and as we wrap up today's conversation, for listeners who wanna follow more of your thinking, what's the best place to connect with you?

Michele Johnston: Um, that would be LinkedIn[00:35:00]

Natalie Nathanson (2): Wonderful. That's always mine as well.

Uh,

well, Michelle, thank you so much for this. Uh, I know it pushed you a bit outside your comfort zone, so I appreciate you coming along for the ride with me, and I loved the chance to bring some of the conversations that, you know, we have, uh, internally at Magnitude into the podcast, uh, especially,

like, your

perspectives on, uh, kind of the shifts in, uh, in digital and in marketing.

Uh, conversation around kind of the metrics and, uh, the importance of investing in both brand and demand. So, uh, so many valuable takeaways, uh, for,

uh,

what I think a lot of leaders are grappling with now, so thank you.

Michele Johnston: Thank you for having me

Natalie Nathanson (2): And thank you too for everyone listening. If today's conversation sparked something for you, and I'm sure that it did, please pass this along to another leader in your network, because we know these are

the kinds

of conversations that help all of us scale smarter, build stronger, and create more resilient go-to-market engines.

So thank you again, Michelle, and this

has been

another [00:36:00] wonderful conversation on Shift and Thrive. I'll See you all next time

That's a wrap for this week's episode. For show notes and more visit Shift and thrive podcast.com. A special thank you to our sponsor, magnitude Consulting, bringing you the thinking power of a growth consultancy and the getting it done Power of a full service marketing agency to help B2B companies fuel their growth.

For more information on magnitude and to get your complimentary transformation readiness assessment, visit magnitude consulting.com/. Get ready. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.