Reinventing Customer Connections - Pete Jones - Shift & Thrive - Episode # 056
S&T_Pete Jones
===
[00:00:00]
Natalie Nathanson: Today's guest is a recognized thought leader who brings nearly 30 years of experience in global customers experience innovation, and is on a mission to help businesses deliver smarter, faster, and more visionary customer experiences. He's successfully built and exited two prior companies and has led.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: companies
Natalie Nathanson: through some major strategic shifts. He launched his current venture eight years ago, [00:01:00] and the company is reinventing how businesses connect, support and sell across every customer touchpoint. In 2024, they were honored as the best contact center immersive technology provider, a reflection of one of the many key markets their solution is designed to serve.
He is the founder and CEO of Grip. Pete Jones, welcome to the show.
Thanks
Pete Jones: Thanks very much, Natalie. Great to be on.
Natalie Nathanson: I'm very happy to have you on and you know, one of the things I love exploring on this show is the key inflection points or kind of the key moments when a company's direction fundamentally changes, whether that's, you know, a market insight, a customer conversation, or sometimes a spark of intuition. Uh, in your case, you'd previously shared the grip evolved its model and initial market focus based on a somewhat serendipitous interaction.
That, uh, shifted a number of things for you and drove you to redesign the solution in a hugely compelling way. So I'd love to unpack that. And can you maybe start by taking us back to that [00:02:00] turning point and, you know, what sparked the shift?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Sure, yeah.
Pete Jones: I'd love to claim, uh, foresight and great, um, great entrepreneurial knowledge and skill, but it wasn't that at all. I met a guy at a bar, so I'll, I'll, I'll wind back a little bit first. So.
we
were, um,
uh, working in, in
various parts of
the world, bringing
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: technology
Pete Jones: into the sales process for organizations who were selling a range of products.
And we were very happy doing that. Loved travel,
loved
the people that we were involved with. All working fine film companies,
um,
technology
companies. Everything's,
everything's working well and. Like I say, I was in, in a bar and
met
this particular chap and we just started talking and he was telling me that he was in, um, served an industry, the call, the call center industry.
And he was from a large,
um, [00:03:00]
business process outsourcer. So they were a provider on lots of different types of campaigns to different companies.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: companies.
Pete Jones: And he started telling me about
what, what,
they did, and it was like.
the
light
of Damascus, it was incredible. What, what he was basically telling me is this industry, which is, um, running millions and millions of people doing, doing, you know, uh, hundreds of millions,
uh,
of calls every year.
Ostensibly,
not much had changed till since
the 1870s, since the phone
was
invented. So it's, it's, it's two people on a call. 50% of the people are blind. To the issue or blind to the product, and they're usually the ones that are charged with fixing the issue or the product. So you've got, on the one hand, you've got customers with problems that the agents can't see and the agents have to guide them how to fix the problems.
Or you've got agents with products
trying to
[00:04:00] sell products that the customer can't see and the customer's gotta imagine them and buy them.
It was
like, this is crazy, and everything we'd been doing up to that point was about bringing systemization, bringing visual interaction into interaction basically.
So putting down a way for customers and agents to work together, typically in a face-to-face environment.
And
do it in a way that it left digital footprint so that the companies, the corporates, could manage that and replicate and scale effectively. And we just saw a massive opportunity to do it remotely with the call center industry.
And that really set us on this next, um, uh, epic part of the adventure. And uh, yeah, that's what we've been doing for the last seven, seven and a bit years.
Natalie Nathanson: Take me through kind of your decision making process around making that shift. So you had this conversation, had the insight. [00:05:00] And, and then what was it something you kind of analyzed? Was it right away you knew you wanted to go full steam ahead? What was that like for you as the leader?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Right,
Pete Jones: right away it was
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: a,
Pete Jones: a,
it,
it was a real
light
bulb moment I think our, our mission
is
to improve business through improve communication. and.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: And we
Pete Jones: were doing it in, in various ways. You know, making things better, making people more emotionally engaged with products, making comms clearer through visual interaction.
But this was an opportunity to do it on a
whole different scale.
And I think, you know,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: know,
Pete Jones: every single.
there's so
many use
campaigns
that were racing through my head at the time, you know, whether you're trying to sell something and, and somebody can't see it. they order it and it's not quite the color they expected, and then they send it back and all the costs.
You know, my background, you know, was in, I did a lot of TNM studies where [00:06:00] you're looking for efficiency gains and I, I was just thinking it's so inefficient. Every word costs money
and
we're using so many words to describe things.
and often
it's a guessing game and somebody's paying for all of that.
Whereas if you could see, you could get to the point so much quicker, more efficiently, and do it in a more engaging way.
You know?
So I think we're all customers of call centers and when I was imagining some of the calls that,
you know,
I'd had lately, it made perfect
sense. I had one call where I was booking a vacation and.
I talked to this nice lady in the Philippines. She was absolutely
brilliant.
I understood her perfectly and I was booking a trip for a party of us to go to Nice in the south of France, and it was amazing. We were gonna go and watch the rugby. It was all systems go,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: and I
Pete Jones: I talked to her
and she
did it, and I couldn't get it on the website.
[00:07:00] And I was delighted. 20 minutes of my life. I was really pleased to spend. And then when I got the booking,
going on holiday to
Leeds.
And it
didn't occur to me that maybe she wouldn't understand my accent. So again, the ability to see the booking at the time, I'd have been able to go, no, no, no, not Leeds.
Niece. Niece in France. So it would've been fun. But then you have to ring back, spend another 20 minutes, cost them money, cost you time, and this is happening millions and millions of times a day. So yeah, I think we knew where, where our. Heart would be for the next, you know, decade ahead and, um, you know, it's, it's bearing out in everything we do.
Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, I think we all have those kind of, uh, stories and experiences of our own, uh, contact center experiences that leaves much to be desired. Um, and I think, you know, eight years later, we, we still feel that today. So I think there's tremendous opportunity. Ahead. I'm curious [00:08:00] to hear, you know, what did it take to get you on, on that path?
Can you talk about the product, the team strategically, you know, what did you do to, to move you, uh, towards this transformation?
Pete Jones: So, um, yeah, a, a great question. We, we had to find the right people to lead because it was a very different mindset. I think that the biggest,
the
biggest challenge, and it's a challenge I always wanted to solve, but we never
did
up until this point, was having a system that
could adapt to any industry, product or service
without the
need for a single line of code.
And that. Required immense thought.
So
before we put finger to keyboard, before we did anything regarding product, we spent the first, um, eight months just looking at what we'd done before refining it, [00:09:00] taking those learnings, understanding what they gave us that Deep knowledge gave us, that would allow us to build a system that was.
Totally not, not highly, totally configurable and all the other good stuff that goes with it, mobile first, all of that and the design of the system was imperative because it's like creative. I've run marketing agencies and, and the, and the thing about good thinking is you never come up against a dead end you can think well, and you build a solid foundation.
You can build anything on it. If the foundation's got a problem, everything you do thereafter, you're just waiting for
the cracks,
you're waiting for the issues. So that, that solid foundation required, um, a, a really different approach, which, which
we
took and different people, we brought a new team in, um, uh, led by the, you know, incredible, um, [00:10:00] person from the top.
And I think that was the pivotal change in.
Approach that
gave us something that was replicable and scalable. And we also, um, uh, started partnering with, uh, BPOs who
are
phenomenal in their, their core business model, as well as being a user and, and distributor. They, they work with every type of business on every type of call and campaign type.
They are truly the experts in call centers. So once you get that knowledge behind you, um, you make sure that you don't get the dead ends and you test and, and constantly test and check your thinking and the foundation. And I, and I have to
say it's stood
up remarkably well. And I think that, that, that was the biggest, um, swing shift in, in the way that we did things.
Natalie Nathanson: I know one of the [00:11:00] things that, you know, you talked about not having to reconfigure the solution for different markets. I think you have a lot of. Different, uh, use cases that you serve, different industry verticals that you can serve outside of kind of only the, the contact centers. Um, I think that can present a lot of opportunity, but can also present challenges, especially, right?
For a smaller company of, you know, where do you focus, where do you prioritize? So can you talk a little bit about what are the impact on your go-to market and how do you think about, you know, where to place those bets?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah,
Pete Jones: Yeah, I, uh,
and it's a great
point and it's, I think the, the, the fundamental is we're, um, we're an enabler.
More than an enactor.
So
like a partnership model. We like to work with partners to help them, um, go to market for their key and core markets and strengths. And, and our job is to give them something with no dead ends that allows 'em to do everything they want to do.
And [00:12:00] when you find those partners that really want to support and lift
you.
That partnership is incredible. It's the, it's, it's the best because everybody sticks to what they're good at.
I think the,
um,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: um,
Pete Jones: the other side,
we have
to look
for the signals. I I like it to gold mining. You know, if you, if you hit a seam of gold, you, you mine like crazy, right? But, but you're constantly looking for those seams.
And I think, you know, we've hit, um, a number of those and, and we're quite focused on. Certain areas and, and certain markets that we could reach. Um, and also helping partners, um, to, to facilitating them to reach their
cause.
So, so things like for us, you know, anything with tech out in the field,
um,
where engineer visits, uh, are happening, we can save a ton of money on those.
You might save up to 15% of. A company's [00:13:00] engineers from going out, um, on unnecessary calls. And that, um, that's a, a a, a really good ROI based model. And everything revolves around ROI. Everything we do is about immediate and enduring value. So if we can't see an ROI, there's no point in doing it. 'cause everyone wants nice to haves, but as soon as the
chips are down, the
first thing to go away are all the nice to haves.
And it's only. If it makes great economic sense that people proceed.
So
all of the engineer stuff selling has, has been a core part of what we've done since Day Dot. So helping people shape
their
go-to market, helping people sell more through the integration of visual tech is still a, a, a huge
part of
what we do and it always will be, uh, and innovating there.
Um, and then retail. We think there's a, a really major play coming in retail that, um.
We will
shift the needle and help, help unite the worlds of, of remote and um, physical and
presence.[00:14:00]
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah.
Natalie Nathanson: Like that. You used the word signals as you were talking about kind of where to focus in the market, because I do think. Uh, this is one of those disciplines that to some can feel like black magic and Right. Not knowing kind of how to pick. And I think there's both an art and a science to it, and Right.
Whether you're looking at, you know, the market size of the different segments and are they growing or shrinking? How are they faring in the, the current and upcoming economy? What's the willingness to pay? What is the impact? And, you know, you certainly have a lot of, um, very compelling, uh, impact metrics to share.
So just the, the discipline of kinda, how do you think through that and then. Where do you place those bets? Is, is really important. Um, I wonder if maybe on the the ROI component, is there an example, uh, like a, a client example that can help kind of bring this to life, um, that you can share?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah,
Pete Jones: uh, uh, certainly I think the, um.
one
from, um, I
think it was just a, just a couple of weeks ago [00:15:00] now, was, um, really a, a good compelling illustration. And that was a, a, a large UK retailer who had a challenge as I think all uk um, retailers do with returns. Um, and this was on the big and bulky section,
um,
as they'd term it.
And.
uh, I
think
the, the numbers broadly were they were getting 1,050 returns a week prior to implementing the, the grip visualization, um, uh, assistance and post, they were getting shy of eight 20. So they had about a 2120 2% reduction in returns
that annualized to a 3.5 million, um,
benefit. Uh, and sadly the, the ROI was 190 odd, or a hundred and a hundred and a hundred and change by the time it had, it had been through.
Um, and I say sadly only, only because, you know, [00:16:00] clearly, um, the end solution was, was really inexpensive for the client. Um, the value
was
tremendous. So, so maybe, maybe there was a, a, a balance on the scales that needed to adjust there. But I think, um, everything we do, we aim. To get at least a 10 XROI even in doing that, I think the a HT dropped 5.7% and the NPS scores went up 207%, so everyone gets happier.
One of, one of the byproducts of that was they also got a lot of hangups, which in normal state of theirs is, is a, is, you know, that wouldn't be good. The customer's hung up. But
the hangups were
the, um, potential frauds where people were ringing up for refunds or compensation because of damage. And as soon as they understood that, the um, company can now visualize and say, oh, show me
the damage.
Suddenly the phone would go dead and they'd never call back. So it, it was a really interesting mix, but they [00:17:00] were charged environments and we were just. You know, um, blown away with, and, and that the, the interesting thing, again, not a line of code was written, live and implemented and fully working with all reporting, branding, and engagement within two days.
And this is a, this is a campaign that had been running for 10 years. So I think it's that ability without even going deep into an architectural inter integration where you can make such an impact.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Up to
Pete Jones: a 20 point impact on a campaign that's run for a
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: decade.
Pete Jones: That's really
exciting.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah,
Natalie Nathanson: I love that. Well, I think you're. The, the v vision of the, the 10 XROI, at a minimum as sort of a, a guiding metric, but then all these other benefits that you're talking about, kinda fraud reduction and, uh, happier customers and all of that. It really helps make the person buying the solution, [00:18:00] uh, and be the hero of their organization that they're bringing this in.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: A hundred
Pete Jones: A hundred percent.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah.
Natalie Nathanson: I wanna shift gears a little bit, uh, Pete, and you know, this having this kind of a, a bold shift in your organization, rebuilding the product, reorienting. Uh, the solution, you know, happens with strong leadership at the helm, and I love hearing the, the conviction that you had around this. Would love to just hear more about your leadership, uh, in general.
Can you talk about, you know, how you describe your own leadership style and, um, is there anything that has evolved in that or have you kind of stayed more and more steadfast in, in your leadership?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: So
Pete Jones: I think I, I, I dunno whether I'd call myself the best
leader.
Um, I think you, you, you have to ask the team on those sort of things. I think my, my style is, you know, what you see is what you get. I'm prepared
to do whatever it takes to,
to win,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: and
Pete Jones: my expectation of the team is that they're [00:19:00] prepared to do the same. So
I
guess it's not an easy, um, place to be. I think, you know, if we're, if we're a team on the pitch, everyone plays for the team.
There's a lot of love.
for
everyone in the team.
But, but we're a, but we're a company rather than a family. So it's not, um, the love comes with an expectation of performance, let's say. So I think the,
the demands
and, and, and a lot of that
is really about trying to ensure that everybody steps up
because everybody else is, and
you know, we've seen in the past where you get.
Um, a team member that, that isn't there,
the effect
that that has on the morale of everyone else. And I think my, my role is to try and
help with that as
soon as, and set the right expectations. Um, and really, you know, lead, lead by example in [00:20:00] that count. Be there whenever needed. Um. Do what's needed, whatever that is to, to help with that goal and win.
And, and clearly like any, any leader's gonna do, sitting down and understanding and taking an interest and caring about the team, right? So it's not like I'm running around every day with,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: you know,
Pete Jones: my arm round everyone and tissues in hand and, you know, everything else. But I think, um, people will understand that, that, you know, I care and. The expectations high. So is the care and the love and Yeah. We're, we're a team and we, we live and die together.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: together. Yeah.
Natalie Nathanson: Um, you know, I wish as a, as a leader that everyone in an organization had, you know, high standards and accountability and. And all of that. I know it can sometimes be hard to find those people with the right profile. How do you identify people kind of in your hiring process that'll kind of fit the the [00:21:00] culture you have?
Pete Jones: It,
It's,
it's never, it's not infallible, right? We, we have, um, multiple interviews with the management team. Um, a a lot of it's about the feel, Obviously, you know, references are important and where people know people who are really skilled, that that saves a lot of.
Frog kissing as I'd call it. But we're, we're, we definitely kiss frogs time to time and I think the, um,
when you do that, you need to
be able to move on and just, um, have the stamina to keep going and find the next, and be as enthused as you were
on the last, and that's
where.
know, it's like when I take a flight, I can, I'm, uh, I think my wirings are, you know, I can get on a, a small European flight that everyone finds a chore.
I'm super excited. I'm just going to a new place. I'm gonna discover something. I'm like, anything to me is a journey and progression, and I think that [00:22:00] that's contagious. And I think, you know, yeah, you don't, you, once the milk spill, you move on. You've always gotta look forward. So are we the best at finding, you know, everything and getting it right first time?
Definitely not. Um, but I think we end up with
people
who fit us and fit our mold and my, my, uh, analogy that, that. I try and give to people is, look, we've,
if we're
a round hole, are you a round peg? We'll tell you everything we can about us so that you can help make that decision. But if you're not a round peg, it will be painful at times because the mallet comes out to get
the round
hole into the round
peg.
So it's about both sides understanding who we are and my.
What
I would say
to people
if they, if they're coming on board, is, look, my most important thing is you are happy. [00:23:00] 'cause if you are not happy, it's not gonna work for us. And so it, it's really eyes wide open. There's no
cage, there's
no lock
and padlock.
Everyone's free to move if they're, if they're not feeling it. But rather than make those errors, I, I just eyes wide open as much as possible. I.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah,
Natalie Nathanson: I think that's such an important area and you know that honesty and transparency in that. Uh, kind of courtship of a, of a hiring process. I think some, sometimes I've seen organizations, uh, wanna say what they need to say to bring somebody in, um, and then you don't end up with the right fit, right? So we're, we're very similar to you, um, right?
Like our environment is not for everyone, but for the right person it's very rewarding and energizing. And, um, and those are the people that kind of stay and grow long term. Um, but I, I find there's a, a parallel between, you know, that hiring process. And, you know, for us on the, on the sales side, on consultative selling is you wanna set clear expectations, give as [00:24:00] real and honest of you as possible, and you're building this foundation from which you can, you know, uh, bring in, bring in the right people, the right clients, et cetera.
Pete Jones: And, and you're, you're a hundred percent right and you're still gonna find client fit that isn't quite the right
fit.
You're
still gonna find those ones that. Come in and, and everyone thinks with good expectation
and then it
doesn't work.
You,
you're never gonna be a hundred percent, but it is very, very similar as you say to, you know, bring, bringing a team member on, bringing a client on. It's the same process. Really, all we want between us is the right fit.
Now sometimes we might not say it in the right way, and it might be that, you know, signals are missed or, or, or everyone understands different things. But
ultimately,
if you could. Especially in your, um, line of business, I think it'd be brilliant if you could have a,
a
transparency button, which anyone going to any website could press and know exactly what it was and [00:25:00] exactly what everything meant.
Then they'd know if it was for them and
that would
save so much sort of false courtship. Um, yeah, it'd be interesting. I'd be, I'd be curious on your view there.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: there.
Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, no, I think it's very true and right. There's different, different permutations around. Kind of who makes the right fit. Um, like for, for our, in our example, like of a, of a client fit. Um, but whether you kind of already coming in with a lot of understanding and appreciation for marketing or maybe you don't have that, but.
You know, your organization needs that to move to the next level. So regardless of the starting point, I think a lot of it does come to, um, just having those open and honest discussions, setting the right expectations and bringing that through. I think the challenge that, you know, our industry faces, and I think you probably see this a lot and you know, customer experience disciplines is.
Others around you might kind of over promise and under deliver or tell people what they wanna hear. You're sometimes [00:26:00] not working from kind of a, a clean slate. You're working from, um, from kind of negative impressions that then you have to overcome that have nothing to do with your own business.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah. You,
Pete Jones: You, you, you, you definitely are. And I think one thing that bridges that gap, like in our case was, um, you know, a, co a common acquaintance who knows both parties and helps with the matchmaking.
And tho those are really, um, powerful ways, whether it's for, for people to work with you or whether it's for customers, whatever it is, having that bridge of trust, um, really helps. It's, it is like a shorthand to get through a lot of things that otherwise you might never end up working together.
Natalie Nathanson: Right, which I think, you know, you were talking about partnerships earlier and working with the BPOs and presumably other types of partners that creates that, that shared relationship and that that bridge of trust.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah, a
Pete Jones: absolutely. And that's why, you know, whether it's BPOs, whether it's VARs, you know [00:27:00] integrators,
they know
their clients and all we are looking for is them to know us
and
know the
solution.
And once they do, then.
Why wouldn't they be the trusted party
to
bring the solution to their customers? Of course, that makes all the sense in the world.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: world.
Yes.
Natalie Nathanson: Um, I wanna shift gears a little bit, Pete, and I'm, in some ways surprised we haven't, uh, broached this topic yet at this point in the conversation. But I wanna hear, you know, with all the, you know, technology out there, um, you know, generative ai, I know it's having a big impact on your field. Can you talk about, you know, how you're thinking about it, uh, as part of, you know, grip's evolution, whether internally or, uh, kind of broader, more broadly in the market?
Pete Jones: Uh,
you're absolutely right. I mean, there's no, there's no con of barely any conversation in, um, uh, contact center industry, um, that that's not about AI in one form or another. You know, either people are [00:28:00] super excited or. Super petrified or combination thereof? I think, I think, um, it's, it's definitely the, the talking point and, and driving force of, of a ton of decisions and change,
um, right now and, and ex
you know, in my book, it's exciting.
Um, it's,
you know, it, it's the, it's the birth of
change,
the likes of which I don't think we've seen before. Uh, and, and Won't see for some time. The, the sheer scale and pace of change is phenomenal. And I think from, from our side, you know,
in the industry in general, it sort of comes in layers. So, um, you know, it starts off as a directive, um,
such
as we saw with Klarna replace everyone with
ai,
cut the costs.
And I think that's now getting really tempered down.
Somewhat
as people realize that [00:29:00] the power's in the combination, I mean, not least of which, if you replaced everyone with ai, who would buy any of the products. You know, it's great to drive the cost base down, but if we, if no one's got a job and can't buy the product, that's gonna be a sort of slightly,
uh, you
know, um,
miserable outcome for
everyone in the long term.
So I think everyone's getting their head around the fact that it's a combination, but there's still waves where we want efficiencies. At the transactional level. So we want anything that can be done easily to be served efficiently and effortlessly, and AI handles that beautifully. Then you go up the next level.
You want customers to serve themselves. You know, again,
that
takes away frustrations for the customer. If I can answer my own query easily,
life's
good. But when
you can't do those things,
when those
things aren't helping, then you're at the point of inflection
where.
that
Human interaction's needed and that.
that
really more [00:30:00] complex conversations taking place.
And I think that's the area we're serving. fundamentally at the moment, is this bridging where all of the agents are now handling more and more complex scenarios, constantly 'cause the easy stuff's been done, being done, either by AI or self-serve.
And,
the human is needed for those complexities.
The customer, on the other hand, less, has less patience they've already been through two layers. They're not, they're not getting where they need to. Their expectations are high. We've gotta arm people, equip them properly, and our simple premise is, listen,
let let both sides see the same thing. Right.
You
just just add site and you're gonna solve things faster.
You're gonna make conversations better. You're gonna take friction away. You're gonna do it in less time. You're gonna get better outcomes. So that's really, you know, um,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: um, a
Pete Jones: a huge part of the, the play,
obviously there, there's a
[00:31:00] role for AI within visualization right now.
AI is, is one dimensional. It's words based. Everything's going off that one. You add the other dimension of. Um, visual intelligence to that
it'll feed
the machine and
the LLM everything
will be transformational. It will bring a whole new way of, of, of looking at the world. So I think that's exciting and we see that, you know, um,
constancy for improvement and feeding back of data and these visual touchpoints as, as a big contributor and architecting so that.
we
have, um,
visual fields, which are ai, um, automated, but
they can
escalate really effortlessly with agents who are also equipped visually to handle Problem. So I think they're, they're all, everything is now hand in glove. It's never a pendulum. It never stops on all or nothing. You, you've just gotta find the right way of doing it.
And again, [00:32:00] for, for us, you
know, we're, we're,
um.
I
think we, we like
people to
get value straight away. It's this, this whole concept of immediate and enduring value. The idea of putting a big amount of money down without knowing where the outcomes are gonna be is, is anathema.
So,
you know, doing this in an iterative way that makes sense when it's live and, and going is, is part of our, our modeling process rather than.
Having a
big investment
to see if
something works.
And I think
that was the old days and there was a lot of blood on the floor, on, on people who spent a lot of money and got no value out. And I think, you know, we look at it a lot more practically than that. I think you, you can bring a lot of value with a little spend.
Natalie Nathanson: How do you think about kind of where to make those investments in kind of your own business and kind of continually enhancing the product and of who in your organization is involved? How much is you, uh, you know, what, can you talk. [00:33:00] A little bit about how that, uh, works.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: So,
Pete Jones: so from our side, um,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: you know,
Pete Jones: we have, uh, our CPO makes, um, makes the majority of those decisions, but done in consultation.
Um, we've got a, a, a phenomenal head of
ops
and it, who
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: together,
Pete Jones: um, will sit and work through all of
the possibilities and
permutations. It's, it's a never ending process. Um, and. You know, really it's, it's, one is what are we doing within product? And two is how can we, um, capitalize and on the, in the efficiencies even within organization.
So typically on that side at the moment, you know, we're, look, we are looking at the whole
go to
market side. As I know you are, um, as I know, your world has, uh, probably changed more than most, or, or it's perhaps equally [00:34:00] gonna be affected to, um, the call center world in a way. Uh, because yesterday it was all about S-E-O-S-E-O-S-E-O.
Now the search process is totally different. I mean, it'd be interesting to see how, how are you dealing with that?
Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. It's interesting, you know, I have a lot of conversations and we have our company initiative around really looking at, as you said, both the internal optimizations, but also how we can bring, uh, kind of new, better, et cetera to, to our clients. And there's a bit of the, you know, focusing in, in the near term, where can we, where can we optimize?
And that human plus ai, as you were alluding to, um, but I've been very, uh, focused and interested in looking at, you know, where is the, the go to market function. Headed in the longer run. Um, I just started reading the book, uh, what is it called? Leaders Make the Future. Um, that's been recommended to me a few times.
I finally pulled the trigger and started reading it, um, and it talks a lot about. Um, [00:35:00] looking 10 years out, and then something called back casting where you're, you might make, you have, you have insights about where the market is headed. Uh, you, nobody's a mind reader, but having that foresight and then working through all of the permutations.
So thinking about, um, you know, in a world where, you know, content comes easily and at the click of a. And what does that mean for, you know, how do you get attention online in a world where websites might, in some cases be kind of one agent talking to another? What does that mean? Um, convergence of, of sales and marketing.
So I think there's these kind of disciplines that are really helpful to think about where things are headed. And then also not to do that in a, in a vacuum. So I, you know, get a lot of value from, you know, my, my peer groups, both other professional services firms, other, other marketing agency leaders, um, to really find that balance of where can we have near term impact, but also kind of skate where the puck is going, as I like the, the Wayne Gretzky quote, um, rather than only being [00:36:00] so, so mired in where things are today.
Pete Jones: Yeah. Uh, I think, I think you're absolutely right. We have to.
We have to be looking for that next wave and getting as informed as we can be, you know, from our side, you know, internally as a team. We're starting to challenge now that, that all of us need to
raise.
In terms of levels of understanding and adoption of, um, AI and, and any, um, enhancement capabilities that's gonna bring in our various areas.
But I think you're right, the, these, um, sessions with peers,
industry
events, um, the, there's so much data out there. It's finding those good sources. Which you are gonna go down a number of rabbit holes on this stuff. Um, but, but you've just gotta keep going
and find
the nuggets that provide great value and then bring those to the table and, [00:37:00] and learn from
those.
I.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah.
Natalie Nathanson: Um, Pete, I would love to hear, learn a little bit more about you. So we've talked a lot about your, your insights on, on the market and, uh, and how you've led, uh, your organization. Can you tell me a bit about kind of your background? You know, who were, who were you as a child? Did you always think you'd be kind of an entrepreneur running multiple businesses over the years?
Uh, tell me a bit more about yourself.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: Yeah, I,
Pete Jones: I.
uh, I,
I suppose
as a child I was, um,
I'm not sure
my parents knew where I'd come from in that, you know, we had
a,
we had a, my mom was a teacher, my dad was an engineer, and I was this kid that asked, I think it was at 7, 6, 7 years old. I'd asked to be taken into Chester, which was our local city, dropped off in this street.
Called Watergate Street [00:38:00] left with
my pound
or whatever my money that I had, and I would go down this street, which was renowned for antique shops, and I would find something in one buy that, sell it to someone in another,
buy
something from them, take it to another buy, take it across, and I'd just go to
everyone in the street knew me
And I would just be doing little deals here and there all the way down. And then I'd get
picked up
a couple of hours later by my ever patient dad.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: And
Pete Jones: I
think they were just astounded, but, but just they had
the great
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: encouragement
Pete Jones: that they gave was just,
You know, see where you go, son,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: it, it
Pete Jones: brilliant.
You, you, you'll either be a millionaire or in jail,
you know? And that was the, uh, that was the, um,
the
view from, from dad. And I
think
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: I
Pete Jones: I just love everything about business. always have,
I'm fascinated, [00:39:00]
you know,
how it works, um, how it could be better.
And
I think
that's really led to here, and
I'm not,
it, it isn't.
that There, are those people and
you know,
it's like
anything you do, I, I, I ended up, my, my first job was at, um, Eastman Kodak. Kodak as it as it was. And,
um, I went
into. The document management arm of Kodak. So, so selling large systems that were
compressing
documents and systemizing so that it was more efficient and safer and easier to store and all those sort of things.
But it just gave me a deep sense of just wanting to improve things. And, you know, naively I, I I used to think, well, what happens when I've sold everyone one of these, you know, what's the next. What's the next thing? You know, just the naivety thinking you're gonna go and, and, and do these and, and it's like that excitement.
It's like, you know,
anything's
possible, right? [00:40:00] It's, it's dreaming and I think I'm more, much more on the sort of romantic, some pirate scale than I am on the process and process and process. I think, you know, I find creativity. Such a pleasure. I think I'm, I'm in awe of artists and creatives and, and I think business has creativity and if you can play your part in that, it's as valid and valuable as anything else.
And I think, you know, one of, one of the talks, um, that
that I
enjoyed the most for its stark revelation was, um. Former CEO of, I think it was the Royal Bank of Scotland, who'd, who'd gone from this small bank to, to being one of the, the largest in the world through lots of, lots of different means. But the, the, the speaker was saying, you know, everyone's focused on cost cutting.[00:41:00]
And
let me tell you, there's only so far you can cut costs,
but
if you wanna increase profits, your capacity to sell more is infinite. For me, that was just such a beautiful way of looking at business, and I think that's why we were heavily focused, focused on the sales side because for me it felt that was the biggest way to really affect the outcome and trajectory of a business was to look at how you can impact sale.
Efficiency is great, but not at the expense of growth. And it's that growth, it's that creativity. That's where my heart lies. Um, yeah,
Natalie Nathanson: I love that, um, you know. While we're, while we're talking around this thread, I'd love to ask you, uh, maybe a more introspective [00:42:00] question and thinking of all of your experience, uh, over the years, if you were, you know, sitting in a room with your younger self, you know, in your first, uh, leadership role, what advice would you give yourself?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: yourself? I
Pete Jones: think, I think it's,
it, it's a, it's
a
hard one to answer other than I think
recognize the value of great people a lot sooner.
So
in other words, don't focus as much on yourself and what you are gonna do and how you are gonna do this. Really lean
in
to, to how much great people can move the needle and how much they can really
alter your, ultimately, your
trajectory.
So
I
th I think that would be the, the,
the,
that would be certainly a, a, a really big.
Lesson, I think.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: I think
Pete Jones: I think on the other [00:43:00] hand, if, if you,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: you
Pete Jones: could spend
a lot of your
life
focused on process and growth and this and that. I, I think you've got to
enjoy life
And you, you gotta, you know,
smell the coffee, smell
the flowers, you know, take the time
out.
And I think
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: think.
Pete Jones: I, I feel I've done that, but I would definitely say that to my younger self 100 times over. You know,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: I
Pete Jones: I think too many times we're focused
on the end outcome
and if you get there,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: well
Pete Jones: done you,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: but
Pete Jones: when you look back,
was that really the best use of your life? And I think
when you've gone.
I love travel and meeting people,
and
that to me is the biggest reward.
You know, and you, you take all of that with you, [00:44:00] and I think it's, um, yeah, the, the, the journey's got to be enjoyable.
And
if it's not enjoyable, don't do it.
I think that's, that's a big, uh, a, a, a a big, um, principle to stand by.
Natalie Nathanson: I couldn't agree more. I, I completely agree with what you're saying, and yet it can be easy to forget when you're, when you're in the day to day. So
Pete Jones: So
Natalie Nathanson: love that advice. I really do.
Pete Jones: right.
Natalie Nathanson: Um, and I, I think that, uh, brings us to a great place to wrap on such a, on such a pivotal note. So, Pete, if people want to, uh, get in touch with you, what's the best way to reach you?
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: you?
Pete Jones: Um.
Happily, uh, pete.Jones@grip.io. GR ypp.io. Love to hear from anyone. Um, and
yeah, I,
I'd, um,
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: um, be
Pete Jones: really interested
to, to,
uh, get any
feedback and,
and
discuss
business
and [00:45:00] change and new opportunities with, with any of your fers.
Natalie Nathanson: Thank you.
That's wonderful. Uh, thank you again so much for all of your contributions to this.
GMT20250723-135644_Recording_1280x720: this. Great
Pete Jones: to you. Really enjoyed it.
I.
Natalie Nathanson: And,
uh, thank you too to everyone that's listening. I know I loved hearing about so much of what Pete shared from the casual conversation he had at a bar that, uh, shifted, drove a major pivot in the business. I think it's such a great reminder that, you know. Big shifts start small and the importance for us to be kinda open to those new insights and ideas and trusting our gut to kind of explore and invest in, uh, the right places for our business.
Um, if today's episode gave you any valuable insights, and I am sure that it did, please share this with someone We know that, uh, sharing this kind of knowledge and information helps all of us grow as leaders.
and
helps us drive successful, uh, innovation and transformation in our organizations. So thanks again, Pete, and this has been another wonderful [00:46:00] conversation on Shift and Thrive.
I'll see you all next time.
Creators and Guests
