Shift & Thrive: CEO Insights on Driving Change

Natalie Nathanson: Today's guest is an accomplished high tech executive and a builder at heart.

He's known for turning early stage ideas into market ready products. He started his career at IBM and in Israel's elite IDF tech unit and has spent over 20 years leading and advising ventures of various sizes from guiding a product from concept to exit to helping AI powered companies scale and his focus always on bridging innovation with real world impact.

More recently, he's been a professional CEO and investor, often focusing on how AI is reshaping leadership and innovation as well as broader societal impacts. He is currently the CEO of XiO, a platform that helps teams speed up development and testing with secure automated data delivery. Yossi Carmon, welcome to the show.

Yossi Carmon: Thank you so much. Natalie, it's a pleasure.

Natalie Nathanson: It's great to have you. And I'd love to kick things off by digging into one, uh, of the transformation stories that's really shaped how you lead today. So I'd love to start by asking you, what would you say is the biggest takeaway from a major company transformation that you've led?

Yossi Carmon: That's a big question I have. I have, uh, I think that my first startup in my, uh, my last one, uh, both of them are big, uh. Big issue for me. The first one is because I just, I just jumped heads headfirst to the world of startups and without understanding anything. Uh, and I think I had pure, pure luck and maybe good instincts, but, uh, luck was, uh, with me along the way.

Um, I think that the big takeaways from that is, uh. To not be in love with your idea, just think about the value you you provide. And that's the first one. And the second one is be personal. And I think we took it, and that's the, the last, uh, startup that, um, I had before at scenario is we completed Bootstrap.

But I think that the big takeaway from that is let technology be part of the, the journey that you are building. So if you build. And I think that the, and Be personnel was very, very, uh, knowledgeable about the value that I need to offer. And I had my design partner and, and I had everything that, the entire ecosystem in place.

Um,

but what

what's great about Be Personal that we built be personal from the ground up based on ai, we didn't. Um, we haven't, we didn't give up on anything in that journey, and it become to be a very, very efficient and productive, uh, solution while when at the end of, of the journey we successfully, uh, uh, stated that, um,

to, to its future.

Um,

I

think those big take takeaways that the, the, the learning curve that I had from the, the first one to the, the last one. Uh, was the, the journey,Not to fear out from, uh, from technology, from, but not to give it a, a huge space or a huge place in your, uh, next startup. So learn how to, um, to embrace it, but also give it, um, the skepticism you need in order to build a great company, not just to be in love with the technology.

Natalie Nathanson: I think that second point is an interesting one and the way you phrased it, let technology be part of the journey that you're building and of. how do you think about that and do you have an example maybe of, uh, kind of finding that right balance between using it, but it sounds like you're saying not be kind of too enamored by it, maybe?

Yossi Carmon: Yeah. I think that, uh, when you are a founder and, uh, the, it's a. I think it's, it's also the, the big cha, the big difference between being a professional CEO and being a founder. And I've been in both, both roles. When you are a founder in the beginning, you are very in love with your creation. So it's your baby and you're trying, they're, and most of us, most of the founders are starting this journey because they're in love with the technology.

They think that the technology can take this, uh, new idea to the next level. And you are building, uh, something great in your head. It, it's probably an, an amazing solution, but you mostly don't see the customers. So you've built a, a spaceship that can take everyone to Pluto, but nobody can live on Pluto.

So why do how it will help anyone to, uh. To travel to Pluto, but if you think a little bit and have your design partner, a partner, and not be in love with the technology and your idea and everything, and let technology also be a very significant part for the, for the what you, you are keen to build. But also think, and not everything will come with technology, but some of it will be just simple, stupid things that a customer needs.

You can build an amazing solution that add the key value, the differentiation that you, you can provide your customers that enterprises cannot provide, but also, uh, with something that people will use

it.

And you'll have customers. And I think this is the major issues that, that, uh, young founders have. The, they are in love with their product.

Like it's a big, it's a small baby. And they're in love with the technology, with ai. They wanna develop everything, everything. AI can do everything. And I'm, I, I agree with most of it, but still customers are not there yet. They are com that's scared about ai. They're replacing jobs, replacing them. Uh, and, uh, maybe, uh, not I have a, I have a, a good, a good, uh.

Story about that. One of the, the, the guys, and I won't say his name, he will know, and when he will see it, he will know it's, it's him. But he, he is, everything he is doing is doing with chat pt. He is writing whatever he wants. His prompts are not that great and that's the reason he also get results, that he's not reading.

Copy, paste and send it, send it. And many times it is just, he gets slammed back from the customer saying, thanks, no thanks. We don't want it. And it doesn't read even the, the, the result. And in the result there are so many stupid things that if you would just read it, you would adjust it and adapt it and, and use AI as as needed.

And I think that also in, uh, in when founders are in love with, with technology, with ai, that it will do almost everything. Uh, I think also them, you are

so depends on

that, um, that you miss. You miss what, uh, you miss the, the right, the right, uh, path or the right product that you need to actually build.

Um,

Natalie Nathanson: would say that, you know, definitely resonates with me and I think when we are working with, I guess, any founder, but I'm thinking especially kinda early stage founders or at least kind of before that point of.

Uh, kind of successfully having scaled up the business is like, it's a very cool and impressive technology, but forgetting about the voice of the customer and right, what the customer wants, what they need, how are they doing it today? So you understand truly like who and or what are you competing against?

What integrations might they need to be able to kinda use the product in a way that's like helpful to their. Day to day, and that's both then the product as well as then kind of the messaging and capturing in the customer's words, how are they describing it? And I think at like various points throughout that cycle, uh, there's places where it's easy, as you said, to forget.

Um, but then you see on the other end of that when you do kind of fully, uh, align with customers either as design partners or kind of in aggregate, how are they talking about the, the solution area, um, what that can do for a company.

Yossi Carmon: Yes, definitely.

Natalie Nathanson: I am curious to ask you, um, you know, how, how do you help a founder to get out of that mode?

So talking to customers is one of course. Are there other things that you think are helpful?

Yossi Carmon: yeah. Um, if we're talking about general, like, uh, 30,000 feet in, in the air, I think having. If, you know, if you look at yourself and you see that,

if

you say a lot of no to your customers, like, uh, look, I need, uh, I have a payment system and all I need is, uh, wire transfer. And you say, oh yeah, this is, um, we are, we're not dealing with it.

This is a, all the, all technology. I don't, we don't, we're

not supplying it.

it. then you are in love with your technology. You stop listening to your customer. You stop understanding, uh, what's the value you are providing, and you're losing the market because other enterprises are offering that, and they will be there and you will be, uh, irrelevant.

The,

the other part is that, and again, it's a story of, uh, two young people that, um, uh, built an amazing, uh. An amazing idea. Uh, but it, it was, it never worked. And, and I think, and, and I'm taking it into a, a different direction because this is something that, uh, a lot of founders, because they're in love with their, their idea and they think that AI is, is the, is the new God.

Uh, I wanted to write an article about that, but my dad said, no, don't go there. It's too,

too risky. And

So I.

Now it's in, in my, uh, drawer.

but one of the things that I did with those two founders, we agreed to take a, like, a small project and show who would use that project. And they went to, to, to AI and everything, whatever AI said, they just copy and paste, copy and paste, and, and of course they delivered, uh, a great solution.

Great product. We, we, we did a, a month of, uh, of a trial, uh, me and them, and I showed them that my, at the end, my solution, which was really, really stupid technology wise, used by more people, because at the end, this is what they search for, not the, uh, hocus focus AI thing, which no, nobody, nobody at the end needed that.

And I think that gave them a great perspective to understand that. It's not just the technology, just not their, their baby. It's about listening and about searching for the value. Otherwise, you know, really irrelevant for customers.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, you're making me think of a client we worked with, uh, a number of years ago.

It was a consulting company and they were launching their first, uh, SaaS product and they, you know, reached out to us, you know, help us launch this product. Uh, of course, a few months, uh, too, too late from ideally how long you wanna be kind of working on this. But, um, really they were thinking of right, like a press release and help with some campaigns and things like that.

And as we looked at it. Um, it felt like the customer wasn't ready for the product as it is, like there was a mismatch between what the target market could do on their own and what the SaaS product could deliver, and actually, um, ultimately like worked through making it more of a tech enabled service. Um, and that worked very well.

Uh, but it is one of those things, whereas the founder, you might have blinders on and like, yes, the SaaS platform in and of itself was great, but without the expertise that, you know, the clients didn't have, uh, it would've been kind of dead in water.

Yossi Carmon: It's a, it's a great point that you raised. One of the things that founders, and I think that if you are a founder and you, and you listen to yourself and saying that you need an expert on the other end to use your product, you miss the market. This is, I heard a lot, oh, my product. I need an expert to use it.

They need to be an expert. They need to be an expert in, uh, software. They need to be an expert in manufacturing, uh, hammers. Whatever it is. They need to be an expert. If they need to be an expert. You missed the market. Completely missed the market.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and then it can go into kind of the ecosystem, right? So do you partner, do you kind of bring in that, that solution set, uh, around them, but at that point you are thinking more kind of around what the customer actually needs. To be successful there.

Yossi Carmon: Yes.

Natalie Nathanson: Um, I'm curious if you think this problem is getting worse in the AI world, uh, kind of founders being kind of in love with their idea and not kind of seeing the customer, uh, truly for what they need, or do you think it's kind of the same old that's, you know, that's plagued us for years?

Yossi Carmon: I think, um. More mature people like me that are not, didn't succeed in the past yet. I think there, there are still AI is just, uh, they ignore ai. Like, uh oh, it doesn't, uh, it's like ignoring,

uh.

GPS Oh, he doesn't know where I know better.

I will drive this way, drive that way. And like my dad, my dad is always the GPS ignoring the GP PS and then he late, he is late for, for whoever, uh, he needs to meet. Um, I think the, this group, uh, AI makes it, uh, harder for them to, um, to get to where they need, uh, for the younger group.

I think AI

is very helpful.

I think the lack of knowledge of how to, how to use it the right way. Uh, and the problem is they don't know what to ask. They don't know what they, they don't know. And that's a huge problem when you build things on top of ai, um, or use AI to build it. And I think as a, as a founder, as a young founder, you need always some sounding board, uh, very.

Very, uh, knowledgeable, very experienced. They help you even if they don't understand anything about ai, that doesn't matter, but they don't understand the market, understand their customers. They understand what are you are selling, uh, this is what you need in order to, to evolve with ai. Um, you know, there, there's a, there was, there was, um. Um, a survey or, um, uh, some publishment about, um, that most of the projects, AI projects

Natalie Nathanson: Oh, the MIT Yeah. Yeah.

Yossi Carmon: failed completely, uh, didn't give the, the value. And I think that one of the reasons is it's not about AI is the, the, the what you expect from it. You expect like, great from every, like it will do everything, but at the end, it, that's, you need to fit it.

It's not just everything and you need to understand what, what you're getting and how, if it makes sense or not. If you don't understand that, so maybe it goes south very quickly

Natalie Nathanson: I

had cringed a bit when I saw that report come out and then kind of digging in. I think some of the things were a bit, uh, disproven it was a very small sample size.

But I think to your point, uh right aligning kinda expectations with where the technology is and then kinda the behaviors of. The, the audience using it, right? That, you know, that readiness that you were talking about earlier. Um,

you know, one other thing before we move off this topic. We were talking about founders falling in love with their idea and kind of to their detriment.

Um, I would love to hear your story, like how did you learn that for yourself? I think it was, you said maybe your, your first company.

Yossi Carmon: Yeah, my first, oh my God, my first company. I did all the mistakes ever a founder can do in, in the first company. First company I, I just left I-B-M-I-I was, uh. The last year I worked in the SAP department, the employ, uh, deploying, uh, SAP as part of I-B-M-I-G-S-I-I-B-M, global Services. Um, and I thought to myself back then it was, uh, 2003, like 20, 22 years ago, uh, I thought to myself, why pay half a million dollar for just, uh, reordering the, the columns and internet and HDML and it is already there.

You can do it for by yourself. You don't need to pay anything. I'll, I'll go and develop, um, SAP and I invested the most of my savings in, in developing the company and developing the, the, the product for two years. Went out with amazing, an amazing product. Really, it was one of the, one of the state of the art perfection in, in, in one place.

And then I realized that everyone was, wow, that's amazing. I, I met with, uh, most of the large enterprises in, in Israel, in, uh, in Europe. Everyone said, look, it's, it's an amazing system, but unfortunately we won't replace SAP. Uh, and I said, why? And we said, it's a risk.

SAPI will

choose SAPI will pay, I don't know, 2 million, $3 million a, a year.

Nobody, nobody will tell anything. No. Nobody will say to me, look, you chose incorrectly, but if I will choose you and you'll be out of the market in two years from now, I'll be fired. I'll be home. Um, and I said, well, I didn't thought about that and I couldn't sell even one license. Not, like, not once. And after I almost gave up, I met a guy that he, he invested in, uh, in my company.

And he knew a guy who was like, like very, like a, like meeting someone in the dark, uh, uh, road on the side of the road. And, uh, this guy was the, the CEO of Sheraton Israel. And he said, and I, uh, presented the, the, my system and he said, well, that's great. I don't need it. And I said, oh my God. Again, like, it doesn't matter which market I'm going ever.

Nobody wants it. And I said, well, what do you want? That's, and that was the first time I asked, what, what do you search? And he said, well, I have my, uh,

uh, all my, uh, inventory sits in the, in my warehouse. Uh, it's a, it's a hotel, everyone. So we don't have someone that manage that. Um, who the per, the person who managed that is the chef and he doesn't care if he needs now, uh, two ki of, uh, uh, uh, salmon.

He will order that from the, uh, from the provider. From the supplier. Nobody will tell, tell anything, will say anything. That's, and I said, okay, let me go back and, uh, and learn. And I went back and, uh, came back with an, with another solution and said, no, no, I don't need it. That's not, it's not worth it. And at the end when we came with an, an amazing solution they needed from us another three months of development, and he was like, really, really, uh, excited about that.

With that, we convert almost all shean in Israel. And then, um, uh, moved to Hilton and Hilton, uh, Europe. And all of a sudden, and, and the, what we saw at the end was maybe 10% of the huge solution that we developed for two years. And I think this is the, the big learn that I took from that journey. It's, uh, completely. I was on the edge of, uh, closing everything and all of a sudden it's open when I was at the end of, uh, of like, I was desperate. And that asking people just let me know what exactly do you need? And if I ask that at the beginning, I think that I would be in a even better place, uh, after two years.

And

that's

the main takeaway from that.

Natalie Nathanson: I think that's such a great story and, and an inspiring one. Um, I'm gonna take us in a slightly different direction based on something you just said, because I think essentially you're saying you have to be ready to disrupt yourself, right?

If the solution ultimately was 10% of what you originally had. And I think something that a lot of, uh, leaders are grappling with today is, you know, it's one thing to disrupt yourself when you're, as you said, like desperate and right. You, you don't have another choice. It's another thing to disrupt yourself when your business is doing great, doing well, but you still might see kind of the writing on the wall of Right.

The industry's changing, technology landscape is changing, and I think these days there's a lot of companies. Grappling with that. So I'm curious, like, do you see that and do you have any advice, uh, for leaders there?

Yossi Carmon: Yeah. Uh, stay on your toes. Uh, the market is changing drastically. Uh. I think with AI today, it's on, on a daily basis. Uh, you need to change pricing. You need to change, go to market strategy. You need to change, um, the product messaging. You need to change almost everything on a, even the, the messaging on, on social media.

You need to change that. You need to talk differently. You need to, uh, be more authentic. You need that. You need to adjust. I, I think if you not, if you do not adjust and you not adopt and you're not growing and revolving. You, you don't know, but you're dying. You and you will, you'll, it will hit

you. I think in the past it's like a, when I was, when I worked in IBM, there were a study, uh, uh, the average age of the large, uh, I think SB 500 companies, and it was then, it was 75 years, you know, what's the age today? 20.

20? years, like the survival of large enterprises is very, very short. Even if you're a startup is even shorter. Like if you're not being bought or you're, you are not doing differently or you, you are not fighting all day long. You just like, it takes n nothing like a quarter two and you're out and with ai.

And I think that when AI was out. I, I told that almost to everyone I met. I'm like, if you won't be, you want to, you won't, uh, join the ai uh, revolution. You won't be there. You want, you will, uh, you will be dissolved into, uh, into the past. Um, so founders need to be on, on their toes. Always ask questions, and that takes me to maybe another angle, like 20 years ago when I established my first startup in 2002 and three, if you, if I like, I felt unlucky. Like many people around me, they had, their father is very in the industry, is a businessman, have the connection or they, they found they could talk to someone.

He was on the board and, and they had knowledge around them. Uh, maybe not, maybe limited, but they had knowledge. I didn't have, I didn't have nothing around me. Um, and I felt unlucky because I couldn't, I didn't have any, any way to learn. Uh, when I got to the point that I, I understood what I need to learn, like my market research, my audience, my everything around me, around me.

I learned that I need to spend money. I need $5,000 and I need to wait two months because market research took a lot of, a lot of time today. Market research. You're doing it in an hour. If I have questions, then I can do it in real time. I don't need to hire anyone. I go to cha chip team. It could be Gemini, it could be grog, it could be whatever you are using, and you can write down whatever you want to research.

Get the knowledge, understand the, the main pain points, take why it, the, your customers have those main pain points. Uh, what's the priority? The weight for, for each one of them, how it'll affect the pricing, your pricing, uh, pricing, uh, compared to your competitors. Like you can do an amazing market research in an hour.

Then adjust and adapt really quickly. So you don't need to be like, uh, always in a, in a, in 200%, uh, uh,

I

don't know. It's a like a, like an engine working on 200% percent every day. You just need to open your, uh, your morning, ask questions, research what's going on, uh, in the market today, or read the news and if it's, uh, you know, competitors or whatever it is, and ask.

Why, what, what's make, uh, what will make a difference with your customers today and why, and always be there and the market is, is changing rapidly.

Rapidly.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. It's uh, it's exhausting and exciting at the same time I think for any of us, uh, in the space. Uh, but I like how you brought it back, uh, to the customer example.

Right. And that's a great way of showing that. Uh, if you're not using kind of tools and methods like this, uh, you're already at a disadvantage because your competitors are, your partners are. Right? So, um, figure out the right way to use it. And I have to say, I've been happy to see that there have been more conversations lately that I've come across around using AI effectively as a strategic thought partner.

Um, it, it

Yossi Carmon: But as a

strategic

Natalie Nathanson: market is catching up what?

Yossi Carmon: But as as a strategic thought partner, not as God,

most of as God, not as not, instead of your own thinking. And I think that example that you had earlier of kind of copy pasting, uh, too quickly, we had the Deloitte case not that long ago Right.

Natalie Nathanson: Of giving back to the Australian government. Um, you know, it it cringe when you hear that. Uh, but unfortunately it happens when you, when you don't have, uh, extra rigor around what you're putting out there. Right.

Natalie Nathanson: so I'd love to take us in a slightly different, uh, direction next, and I, I know in your background you've been both a founder and a professional, CEO.

Um, so we'd love to hear, um, you know, what have those two different experiences taught you about leading and, um, you know, what have you learned from the difference between the two

Yossi Carmon: As the founder, I think most people wants to, to see the exit at the end of the road. But then the success is selling the company, selling the idea, selling something, uh, left with something from their baby. Um, and the exit is not, um. Like, for me, a

new,

an exit would be a great, uh, financial, uh, success. So we would say, oh, great. I have, for my pension, I'm more, um, I'm more funded. I'm more stable. Stable financially. But for founders, the exit is more about prestige. It's, oh, I developed something, everyone wanted it and I sold it to someone.

Doesn't matter if it's for, for 70 K or 70 million. Uh, it's a prestige. They bought my, my baby, what I, I developed. And I think it's, uh, when you become, you become a, a professional CEO, you stop looking at, at the prestige because you know it doesn't matter because there's really a fraction of people that actually exit and.

Without saying, I think that, I think that founders and, and company owners, if they have customers, they don't understand that they don't need to close. They can sell the, the, the company. And from here, just, uh, in the premises, if, if you have a company and it's about to, to be cloth and you don't know what to do with the technology or the company and you have customers.

Don't close it without selling it. You can sell it. There's, there isn't a company you can't sell with customers. Of course not without, uh, there's a, there are some technology companies that you can sell also the technology. But I think, uh, uh, back to the, to the topic, a professional, CEO looks at the, at the growth that you bring, uh, with the product.

And if a product is not performing, you kill it. You don't need it. You need the performance, uh, you need the growth, you need the, the success, the financial success, the founder and me included in the past. I didn't, I thought that the product, uh, is, is the key regardless. Uh, and if I would change it and, and positive win was one of that, if I would, if I will develop more, if I will make it very, like more perfect, uh, then people will buy it, then no.

People will buy even the stupid thing as long as it give them what they need. Uh, they don't need perfection. They need value. Um, and the. That's the main, I, I think lessons I took from being a founder and being a, a professional CEO and also, uh, back to the value.

Value

is the key.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

Um,

you're making me think of a, a guest I had on the podcast a little while ago. Um, rich Walker and he, uh, runs a successful company, um, and had the thought of, what if I promoted myself to our professional CEO? So kinda just the CEO mindset. What different decisions would I make if I were looking at it through that lens?

If I had a board to report to if I had an owner that wasn't me. Um, and it was so interesting to hear him talk and I actually. Took a lot of lessons for that. For myself, I brought it back to my Entrepreneurs Organization, group of other head of CEOs and business owners. Um, And I think even before bringing in a professional CEO, you can kind of push yourself to think, uh, along those lines.

Um,

Yossi Carmon: yeah,

I thought I took a board as a, as a, as something that is there. Um, I never acted, uh, in a company, even as a founder that I didn't have a board. But I

I don't know how to work without a board. I think board is very important.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, any advice then for companies that are, that, that don't have one on

the, The core building blocks, what would,

who would you put in

there?

Yossi Carmon: oh, that's a great question. First, I, I think every board, uh, of a company needs to be at least five, not more than five. And high is enough. Um, but you need, um, I think you need a CFO to be there, A financial guy. I need, you need, if it's a professional company, you need someone from that area.

Uh, I, you need someone from marketing sales to be there. And you need someone that understand investors and will track them. Uh, those are the people and of course you need you. Uh, as part of the, the board, uh, those are the people that you, you would need, uh, in your board don't bring to people with the same, uh, qualities.

Uh, uh, just waste of, uh, of a seat.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. And, um, you know, when you're coming in new into an organization as CEO, are there, you know, how do you build trust with the team quickly? What are the first things that you do?

Yossi Carmon: First is to get to know everyone, talk to them, understand their,

what qualities they're

bringing to the, to the work. Uh, that's the first time, um, I think, I don't think I know that I, I manage with my heart and, uh, and I'm not getting into,

uh,

never, even if people are angry, I'm not getting into, uh, personal, being personal.

Uh, it, it's never personal for me, but I think that, uh. One of the most important part is take decisions, uh, fast. So don't,

don't

take things too long. Like if a person is not, uh, suitable for the, for where he is, and he is a great person and you can move them to be something else, move them. If they're not aligned with the co company, uh, culture, move them out.

Um, if you meet someone in the, in interviews and they're great, but they're not great for that position, but are great for something else, and you can take them there, take them, don't lose them. Um, but the trust, I think, um, maybe my,

my

people can, can say that. I don't know. Um, I think I'm honest. Honesty and clarity is, is key for every leader.

Uh, people. Needs to understand where they're going. What are the, why you decided like that, why you decided A and not B uh, what do you see in general, like not just two steps ahead, but 10 steps. Uh, what do you see as a strategy? And B, very, very genuine. Not full of shit, and I'm sorry for the language, but it's, uh, it's something that I see a lot in, uh, in people that come for.

The title not come to actually lead and succeed, and it's important

Natalie Nathanson: I think I, I very much like that last point because I think being in it for the right reasons makes, uh, a whole world of difference.

Um, and one other question for you in, in this, uh, arena is, uh, what advice would you have for founders to being be aware of when the company has outgrown them? What kind of uh, barometers would you, would you share?

Yossi Carmon: I would say from my own perspective, um, when you feel, when I felt, um. In positive way when my first startup, I felt from the beginning that's, I'm, I'm Invictous like I, I don't know, left or right. I didn't know how to handle the finance. Finance. I didn't know how to engage with customer correctly as a founder.

Like I, I was really in love with, uh, to talk to investors. Um, it took me two years to, to learn that. And, uh, I spent almost all my, my savings during doing that. Um. After that. I think that when it's not, uh, it's not you, you have that, this glass ceiling. You need to know, you don't need to move out from your position as a founder of the CEO.

You need to bring the right people under you. You don't need to be afraid from strong people. That will, will be executives in your, in your, uh, company. You need to bring people. That can be every one of them. And this is something that I see a lot with the founders. They are afraid. They have a board.

They're afraid to bring an amazing salesperson, an amazing CFO, uh, an amazing C-T-O-C-I-O because they're afraid they might replace them, or the board will see them as successful. They will say, okay, you know what? You are the founder. More mobile side. Let's put a as the new CEO. And, and I think a good founder, a strong founder.

A guy

that, or, or a woman that aren't afraid to bring strong people under them. It just make them stronger and more successful. Bring advisors, use advisors and if they don't know, use an advisor to help you just do it. It's worth the money. It will shorten the, the journey and you will lose as, as less money as you can.

And, and if you feel, and I think that there are a lot of, uh, founders that grow, grow up into. Um, uh, public companies, managing public companies in Nasda, in, in Newark Stock Exchange, uh, and still doing amazing, amazing, uh, work. And if you feel that you, it's beyond your capabilities, just let someone else manage it and, and fly at the end.

You have stocks, you have shares, uh, the, the higher they're worth, the more money you get.

Natalie Nathanson: I think that's great advice and, uh, very, uh, very, very clear. So thank you for, for sharing it in that way. I had love to talk about go to market next. I know you've, uh, led multiple companies through, uh, numerous shifts and would love to hear, you know, in, in today's environment, what do you think is most important to get right on the go-to-market side of a business?

Yossi Carmon: Oh

Natalie Nathanson: I'm throwing all the hard ones at you.

Yossi Carmon: Yes. so in my opinion, the, the, the most important PO point today in GoTo marketing is authentic authenticity. Onset authenticity. Authenticity, sorry. Um, that's the main, the main part with AI today, with everyone being able to, uh, to generate content. If it's a video, if it's, uh, uh, um, even messaging, whatever you have.

You can do it with AI and, and social media and everywhere is like, there's a, uh, almost 1000%, uh, um, growth with content. All, all, all over social media because of ai. 'cause everyone can now write amazingly very story storytelling, very appealing. Uh, but people are like sick of it already. They, they want, uh, something very authentic.

Very true. Um, and I think with, with your go to marketing, in my opinion, is the market will, will be, in the next five years, it'll be more word of mouth people recommending to, to their friends, uh, more on that area. I think people want to see, want to see in their eyes or hear with their ears, see that the, this is the actual.

It's actual, it's like live, not No, no, not a video or, or ad. Um,

and

experience. People wants to experience that themselves. Um, it's not enough to, um, uh, there's a lot of fake out, like, um, crazy fake. And I think therefore the, if anyone plans with go to marketing, uh, email, emails, uh.

Add the, the efficiency of those drop down to almost zero.

All of them ads. Google ads not working anymore at

all.

Completely. Like it's, uh, and AI is like, everyone's searching in with ai. So you, you need to think out of the box.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah,

Yossi Carmon: would go by the way, I would go as a marketing person, I would go to the old ways. You know, you are my age. On, on average, I can close enough.

Uh, when we were in, in, uh, like 30 years ago, we sent envelopes with letters to people, to their inbox, uh, mail inbox. Uh, that was the, the an, an amazing way to reach out to, uh, business, uh, partners, to um, to CEOs, to executives. It was easier. With a gift, I think. I think the go to market, the next go to market will be back to that, to that area,

something. like that.

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, I, I love that you said that. It's a conversation I've been having a lot both with, you know. Customers, uh, my team, um, and very much agree. I always say, and my listeners are probably sick of hearing me say it by now, that it's never been easier.

To create mediocre content, right? And so that becomes the new table stakes. That's why it's so easy to ignore. There's this kind of AI slop everywhere, and I think we will see a return to, uh, kinda some of the more traditional channels, ideally powered by kind of newer technologies, right? Using AI the right way, using automation the right way.

Um, but human to human interactions. And I, and I think that can seem almost like a cop out, right? Well, what do you mean there's no new silver bullet tactic, right? And we're going back to events and back to word of mouth. Um, but I think it's really like, how do you orchestrate. Um, all of these different tactics in the right way and make it authentic to your company and the solution you bring and what your audience cares about.

And, um, I think there's a, there's a tendency to wanna look for kinda what is that, that next silver bullet. And,

um,

it, it doesn't feel like it's there. It feels like you need to really make your, your kind of go to market. Your own.

Yossi Carmon: Yes, definitely. You need to think out of the box.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Um, but it's fun, right?

Everyone can do more than they could before creating their own videos. And, uh, it, the, the thought partner can kinda think very differently if you're, if you're using these tools in the right way.

Yossi Carmon: I agree.

Natalie Nathanson: Um, so would love to, uh, shift gears a bit and learn a bit more about you. Um So, would love to ask, is there anything personally, uh, maybe outside of work that you're kind of excited or, or into these days,

Yossi Carmon: Oh, uh, I love that question. So for me, it, uh, I never was keen about sport at, at all. Like, uh, for me, basketball, football, it was like, oh my God, all of those guys that's sitting in front of the TV and shouting and it's not, wasn't for me. Um, but lately, just in the last year, I fell in love with tennis. I think it's a.

it is

rooted inside the way I am. Uh, like everything is very strategic on the court, and it's very also very friendly. So it's not just competing, it's about the experience, the, the fun, but also think, um, like if you, um, hit a ball and, uh, you score a a point, uh, it become like part of the, the, the laughter on the how, how we did it or how you did it.

Um, and, and it's, it's one of the, the, the most amazing sports I found myself looking at the TV some, uh, one of the days my, my son went in, came to, uh, to visit me and he said, oh, what are you watching? And I said, tennis. He said, really? You never watch the, uh, like any, uh, sport said, well, that's, I become to love it.

Um, so today I'm playing, uh, three times a week and I'm, I would play every day if I could. Uh, and I just enjoy it. So I I, and I think it keeps you sane. Uh, ev any sport, it doesn't matter. Any, any hobby as, as a founder, um, you need something, uh, to take yourself out. If it's, uh, hiking, whatever it is that you're doing, um, several, seven times a week, just do it.

Just take yourself out of work of whatever you're doing. Breathe, uh, invest in yourself is really, really important.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, I, I agree. Uh, on, on all fronts. Um, I also, uh, love, love playing tennis. I would not say that I'm particularly good, but I took lessons as a child and then of course, like many kids told my, my parents, I didn't wanna take lessons any longer and then kicked myself for the next two decades, but I picked it back up.

Uh, you know, as, as an adult, but I do think it's one of those sports that you can play all ages. I remember in my late twenties, I used to play against my father and Right. He could still beat me. Um, I'm now just at that threshold with my son where I still, uh, take it. Maybe a little easy on him, but I think this is probably my last year of being able to do that.

Um, but it is, it is a fun sport and you can play it anywhere, right? I've done it when I travel, just bring a pair of sneakers. Most places have a spot you can rent a racket.

Yeah. definitely. I loved it.

Yeah.

Um,

so, you know, before we wrap up, I wanna ask you a more introspective question. And thinking about, you know, all of the things that, uh, you've kind of learned throughout your career.

If you were sitting in a room with, uh, little EOC, like in your first management or leadership role, what advice would you give yourself?

Yossi Carmon: Everything will be okay. Don't stress out. Just enjoy.

Natalie Nathanson: Straight and to the point. I love it. Thank you. And if our listeners, uh, want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to reach

you?

Yossi Carmon: Email, LinkedIn. Um, I'm approving everyone on LinkedIn, so it's not, don't feel bad. Uh, email if they want a phone number. Well, I'm okay. I'm open. If you need help, you need advice, uh, just ping me, uh, ping me and I'll, I love to help.

Natalie Nathanson: Well, it's, uh, necessary for people. There's not enough knowledge out there so people can actually advise with anyone else, so I'd be happy to help.

Well, that's a very generous offer and uh, thank you. Uh, thank you for that and thank you for a great conversation.

Yossi Carmon: Thank you. Uh, it was a pleasure. Um, I was really stressed about it, but I enjoyed it.

Natalie Nathanson: You, you did great. you did great.

Yossi Carmon: much.

Natalie Nathanson: And I loved hearing so much of what you shared and kind of the early pivots as a founder and how you learned that, and the conversation around, you know, how AI is, uh, reshaping leadership.

Uh, so thank you for all of the insights that you shared.

Yossi Carmon: Thank you.

Natalie Nathanson: And

thank you to, to everybody that's listening. Uh, if today's conversation sparked something for you, and I'm sure that it did, please pass this along to another leader because we know that, uh, insights and stories like this help fuel all of our thinking and help us drive change and transformation both in our companies and in ourselves.

So thanks again, Yasi, and this has been another fantastic conversation on Shift and Thrive. I'll see you all next time.