Shift & Thrive: CEO Insights on Driving Change

S&T - Kevin Bailey
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[00:00:00] In today's business world, change is the only constant, and mastering transformation is the ultimate key to success. Welcome to Shift and Thrive. I'm your host, Natalie Nathanson.

Each week we'll bring you conversations with CEOs who delve into how they successfully drove critical change in their organization. This show is sponsored by Magnitude Consulting, bringing you the thinking power of a growth consult. And the getting it done, power of a full service B2B marketing agency.

Natalie Nathanson: I am super excited to speak with today's guest.

He is a three time Inc. 5,000 founder with a track record of building and growing successful companies. Earlier in his career, he founded and led relevance, a company that grew rapidly to become one of the fastest growing companies in the country. Earning Multiple Inc. 5,000 rankings, including a top 100 placement.

During that time, he led his team [00:01:00] through sustained high velocity growth. His leadership has also been recognized with numerous awards, including multiple best Places to Work awards. In recent years. He's focused his current company at the intersection of leadership and performance, applying insights from neuroscience to help leaders operate more effec effectively under pressure.

He is the CEO and co-founder of Dream Fuel. Kevin Bailey, welcome to the show.

Kevin Bailey: That's wonderful to be

here, Natalie, that that was a great introduction.

Natalie Nathanson: Lots of great things to share.

Kevin Bailey: Thank you.

Natalie Nathanson: And

Kevin, I started a lot of conversations with a, with a transformation story. And, uh, for you, I'd really love to start with a moment from your journey that I think will anchor a lot of the topics I wanna bring up with you today. Because I know you had the experience of building and scaling a high growth company pretty early in your career and that, You know, that sometimes comes with a lot of success on paper, but also some, some real pressure behind the scenes.

And so later in the conversation, I do wanna get into, um, You know, how that shaped your thinking around mindset and [00:02:00] leadership and, and all of that. But to start us off, can you take us back to that period and, You know, walk us through what was happening, uh, as the company was scaling and, You know, what you were navigating, uh, personally as well.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, so back at my first, uh. Technically first startup, uh, although I did dabble in other companies before, um, was founded with a couple of my, my good friends from high school, uh, just recently graduated from college and it ended up being a really high velocity company.

Uh, I was the one that got to Inc. 58. And as we were scaling that

actually passed

about a hundred employees. Uh, I had my first kid. And it was kind of, You know, I was in my twenties, first kid. Not realizing all

the pressure

that came along with building and growing a company. When you get lucky enough that You know you have product market fit and it starts growing like the,

You know, you

gotta change constantly as a leader.

And I was CEO of the company and I just started to really hit a rough spot. [00:03:00] Um, my leadership was suffering because of it. And I was, I remember I would just sit there and stare at my computer screen a lot and be in kind of a freeze response. And I was very ineffective, I felt like,

and

I was like, what is wrong with me?

And at that point I started meditating and I, um, was lucky enough to meet a neuroscientist, uh, who worked with, um, athletes, and she started to teach me some skills to help work on my mindset. Help change,

You know,

the way I showed up for my team, and it was kinda the combination of mindfulness,

which gave

me awareness and then the neuroscience based

tools sort

of reprogram how I showed up.

That made

me go, wow, this is

different than therapy. Uh,

these tools are

incredibly effective for, uh, my future and incredibly effective for leadership. And, and it was just, I never knew there was stuff like that that existed.

So

I started to realize that. If there was an [00:04:00] opportunity that I was very passionate about for helping not only my team, but leaders at other teams, uh, perform mentally, uh, at a better level, and that was kind of the seeds of dream fuel.

Natalie Nathanson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I wanna talk more about dream Fuel as we go through the conversation. I think hearing your, your story and kind of the, You know, how you describe it with, You know, you knew your leadership was suffering. Um, what was the process to kind of get yourself out of that? Were you, you mentioned finding kind of meditation.

Were you looking for something different? Um, what was that process kind of coming out of?

Kevin Bailey: Yeah.

it's a while back. So, like I said, I can remember a lot of staring at my computer screen not being productive. I can remember a lot of like physical

symptoms related

to stress. Like I had IBS at the time, and that [00:05:00] was, You know, challenging.

I can remember. Uh, going home feeling like a zombie, like not being able to show up for my relationship effectively, not being able to communicate well, like I was, I was peaking at a level of stress that I think was just,

I,

I was doing okay at work, but I think most everything else suffered. I lost a lot of friends

and

I think the meditation thing was just a recommendation from my parents, and I was like. I was kinda like, ah, it's kinda weird, but maybe I'll give it a try.

And

I can remember the first deep meditation I had, I was like, whoa, I feel normal again.

And

then, like I said, I ran into the, the neuroscientist and she, she was able to like, that's great, you're cultivating awareness, but let's, let's see what we can do with this.

You know, like your brain's like a computer. We can reprogram

this.

And I think that was just kind of led me down the

path. And

then just little tools I started sharing with my team. [00:06:00] And

saw

a great effect, especially on the sales side. You know, when we were like my, my sales team, it was like before even Breathwork was really in the zeitgeist, so to speak, and You know, we would.

We

would do a

little bit of breath work before our team meeting, and I was like, before and afters incredibly different. Like we're actually having a real conversation right now. We're solving real problems. People are opening up rather than just being, You know, all tight and stuck and holding back. So I remember we solved a lot of problems in those first few meetings we had just doing breath work and then I sort of, You know, took it from there. You know, really changed my, I was both a leader and, uh, at one point I stepped away from the CEO role and I became an enterprise sales person for the company, and I about doubled my close rate using some of these techniques. So again, stuff is, You know, used with athletes for a reason, You know, so you can show up consistently at your very best.

And I was finding those tools were very effective. It helped me be a [00:07:00] better leader and a better salesperson.

Natalie Nathanson: I mean, I think it's, uh, You know, the reality is what can look very successful, like externally can feel very different, uh, internally for a founder. I know myself, like I've, I'm in, uh, EO Entrepreneurs

organization.

I've

been in Vistage and WPO, and I think one of the things that I remember, uh, kind of early on, uh, in those days and being kinda in those peer groups, uh, was kinda everyone facing the same kinds of challenges and whether it's imposter syndrome kind of stress.

Uh, hard time with kind of the perfect balance, uh, so to speak. And, um, it's something that just doesn't get talked about, uh, enough. Uh, especially not in kind of open circles, but, but is so prevalent.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. it's, it's all over the place. We did a study with,

uh, a

second company I worked with called Powder Keg. It's a Midwest tech community and

did a

big survey about not just just the topic of mental health, but a lot of different areas.

But it

was amazing

to see the some [00:08:00] several hundred, um. Tech founders and the results came back and it was almost disturbing. Just a lot of, it's kind of like,

not that

all founders have, like clinical mental health disorders, it's just that when you put yourself in really high pressure situations, you

can sort of

resemble those, You know, uh, generalized anxiety and stuff like that.

But yeah, that was when I was like, whoa, this is a real problem. There's

a lot, a

lot of founders, a lot of entrepreneurs that are really suffering.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

I'm curious, You know, as you uh, kind of approached your next venture once you had kind of been enlightened, so to speak, uh, were there things you approached differently in how you either kind of built the firm or kind of set up your role for success?

Kevin Bailey: You know,

my first company was really high growth. My second company was a tech community. And then this company is, have four kids and this is my love. This [00:09:00] is, You know, one of my loves. This is something I'm really passionate about. My first company, I was not that passionate about the topic

and

this is one that I wanna, You know, keep long term, meaning like, You know, I don't see any reason to like grow and exit this company.

Maybe, You know, at some point down the road, but

I'm not.

Angling for an exit. So this is like, I'm, I'm here to, I'm here to stay. If, if an opportunity comes to sell it, it makes sense for the investors and everyone. I'm, I'm down, but I am very mindfully building this company. So I try and lead this company, uh, with my intuition a lot more.

I also try and align it with, in my case, being a Catholic, I, I try and allow.

I guess to

not alienate anybody, the universe, to have a hand in the construction of this, more so than my ego, [00:10:00] and that's been tricky, but

nice.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah,

I'm sure there's a guest, uh, I had on the podcast, uh, Ricky's son, uh, probably six or nine months ago now. Um, but he was talking, he is talking about kinda eastern versus western, uh, philosophies and he was raised with very much kind of an eastern mindset. And, um, just how that has shaped, uh, the way that he leads and the way that he, uh, leads his team and really kind of thinking more and kind of taking that moment to kind of catch yourself before you act.

Uh, and, uh, it was, You know, really, uh, impressive to see kinda the impact that that had on himself and then on his team and is now kinda a, a different culture than what you typically find in, in Silicon Valley. Uh, for sure.

Kevin Bailey: Uh, Eastern philosophies are amazing. I try and, yeah, just, I try and integrate as much as I can.

Uh, I wasn't raised, uh, Christian, so I've, I've spent as much time studying Buddhism and

[00:11:00] stuff as I

have studying Christianity. But yeah, both have, have

wonderful.

philosophies for I think helping businesses be more, um, harmonious.

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, I'm curious how, um, how kind of this journey for you has shifted your leadership style? Like how would you describe your. Leadership style, uh, kind of currently,

and, kind of how has it evolved over time?

Kevin Bailey: Well, my first, my first startup, uh, sometimes they would, uh, I, I say lovingly, call me Darth Vader. Um,

Natalie Nathanson: Now I understand why you

left.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. Tall and loud, but also I was a bit of an ass. Um, I would say at this company. Again, much more intuitively led

and

I think I push up against my, well, I, I gotta practice what I preach. I push up against a lot of the leadership, um, compulsions I have that

maybe aren't adaptive.

And I, I, I [00:12:00] work with 'em and I, I try my best to, to not. Again,

do

things unconsciously. So I think a leadership style is more open, more transparent, um, more understanding, more compassionate, but also maybe in some ways a little more straightforward. Like, uh,

if

changes need to be made, I make 'em. Sometimes they're really painful. I don't really delay things too much. Like before, like yeah, I was, my ego was so pronounced, my first startup. It was all about how does it look? And this company is a little bit more like what actually works, what matters. Ego aside, what's the best move.

Natalie Nathanson: You mentioned. Against some leadership compulsions that are non-adaptive. Do you have any examples that come to mind? And then like specifically how do you, uh, kind of work with yourself to kind of push past them or fight against them or whatever the case might be?

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, I mean, stuff comes [00:13:00] up, You know, a lot.

You know, at one point had a.

Team member who was doing small

behaviors were

eroding trust, I tried to

address it. This was an effective team member by the way, they were doing their job well. I tried to address the issue, didn't quite get sorted out.

Um,

ended up parting ways with the team member. Um, relatively quickly.

Um,

this is something I barely would've noticed in my first startup, let alone taken action on.

These were small things, but I, but I was kinda like, well, okay, how am I gonna trust this person with the big stuff if they're eroding my trust on the small stuff? So I, I took decisive action. It was painful, I think, for both parties. I still think the person's cool, great person, You know, was no, but it was like. [00:14:00] Yeah, I think in

the past,

like I said, I was barely aware to notice the trust was being, uh,

eroded.

I wouldn't

have taken

action on small things. I wouldn't had the foresight to see how small things could turn into big things. That's like example.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Which I think to your point of kind of intuition, I think one of the things I've learned a lot over the years is trusting my gut. And it's something that felt kind of too squishy maybe earlier. Uh. In my career, but you learn to really listen to those kind of, uh, little voices in your head to speak about, uh, sanity, right?

And, um, but usually there's, there's something to them. And so taking the time to kinda pay attention to them, and then even if the decision is no action, you're at least kind of pausing, analyzing, and then deciding how to move forward rather than just pushing it aside and kinda moving onto the next task on the list.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. Intuitions is very, uh, important and very hard to understand and tricky. It's [00:15:00] like, uh, yeah. How do you, how do you tell the difference between something that's, uh, an intuitive nudge versus your own fears, You know.

it's

Natalie Nathanson: Are there any, uh, like ways that you do that either for yourself or in kind of the work that your, your firm does that you guide people to kinda how to do that the, the right way, so to speak?

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. Um,

a few

things I guess we could talk about that might be helpful for people trying to understand the difference between their intuition and maybe inner critic and different head voices that

that can

be pronounced.

First

thing is to note that your Ego, inner critic. uh, let's see, what network in the brain, fear-based networks in the brain,

antisocial

networks in the brain.

the

amygdala is that

those voices

are really loud and pushy. So intuition is kind of like more [00:16:00] like a whisper typically. So if you have like something that's blaring in your head, like. Normally not your intuition. It's hard to recognize that 'cause you

think it's

like, oh, this is the part of me that's like

supposed to,

You know, help me get away from danger or something. No, the defensive networks in the brain get away from danger. That's fine. But nuanced, intuitive, strategic

decisions come

from a much deeper place.

So

the first thing I think is to note, is to note that it's more like a whisper. Like I said, in most situations. Now you can ramp up your intuition. By controlling your physiology. So you take a somatic breath work, which is something we do with executives on Thursdays at at, at noon Eastern. Uh, we'll take a, You know, like you've been on that.

So, uh, breath work,

you do

breath work. It's kinda like turning your intuition on. So then the inner critic gets quieter and the intuition turns up so you can hear it a lot [00:17:00] more. Um, another thing you can do to, to check your intuition is, uh. Really, your intuition speaks through your body quite often. So when a decision makes you feel open and expansive and lighter, that's normally an intuitive yes.

When a situation makes you feel closed off, shrunk, independent, disconnected, that's normally a no. So you can kinda look at how your body moves, like internally, does it make me feel more open? Can I breathe or does it make me feel contracted and

closed? But yeah,

I think it's, it's a lot about state management, physiologically to tap more into your intuition.

So if I'm, if I'm ever like, this is a tough situation. I don't know what, what decision to make, I might just do five minutes of breath work and then reflect on it. Like, okay, how do I feel in this state of consciousness to make sure I'm not just making a snap decision That's based on fear.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Which I know can, uh, can feel like the hardest thing to do, right? When you've got a never running to do [00:18:00] list and lots

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. It's like oh, I got five minutes, don't, God forbid, You know, it's like I have five minutes to try and fix my state before I

do something.

Yeah, you're right. We always feel like we're under so much

heat.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, yeah. But I had a client a number of years ago, say, uh, kind of her, her, uh, mantra was slow down to speed up. Right? And so

this feels like a perfect,

uh, example of that, of you need to give yourself. Uh, that time and the more you feel you don't have it is maybe when, when you need it the most. Uh, but I will give a, a quick plug for your, your CEO uh, meditation breathwork, uh, sessions, because I know that's how we, uh, came on each other's radar.

And, uh, I'm always amazed, uh, by right, it's a 30 minute, uh, slot. I know you do it in a free and open to, to the community. Um, and just how different I feel before and after. And I'm certainly guilty of being one of those. Like, I couldn't possibly carve out 30 minutes today. I've got so much on my calendar, but every time I do, I'm so thankful.

Um, and there is something nice about that kind [00:19:00] of accountability, uh, of, You know, having that time on the calendar and having other people around. I know it's, for me at least, it's, it's harder when I have to, uh, hold myself to it. Uh, he a solo.

Kevin Bailey: That's wonderful to hear. Yeah, it's, uh, Breathworks are great.

We're just putting so I'm really to see them make even more impact. But yeah, the, the little community

founder, CEOs,

sales leaders and stuff, it.

I call it like the, you have a minimum viable MVP minimum viable product for like, uh, just maintaining your mental health as a founder as just like one breath work session once a week.

If you're gonna do something, like, I think that's just a great way to just dump, empty out the nervous system, recenter yourself. Yeah. I'm glad you enjoy.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. I also as the, uh, the marketer and kind of networker and me also just loves the, like the genuine community, uh, building that you have in that, right. It does feel very genuine. And, uh, kinda nothing, uh, remotely salesy about it, but adjacent and [00:20:00] relevant to, uh, to your business. Uh, so I'm curious, uh, how that came about as just a, a concept of how to kind of, You know, build relationships within your ecosystem.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, it was one of our coaches actually, You know, we do this.

Basically,

uh, the initial session we normally do with a client is

a

breath work

and visualization

session about their goals. And over time,

You know, we

started building more generic ones that weren't about people's goals or were about like climbing a mountain or like symbolically they represented something that, You know, helped a founder maybe feel tangentially related to something, maybe more strenuous.

They were dealing with There's some things we do that do feel like climbing a

mountain or

running a marathon in a desert, et cetera. So we started doing those and I was like, oh, these are cool. And then my, the coach was like, can we just do these for people? I think just do more of these for people, You know, and

and it'll

grow and people will come, You know, and, and wanna work with us more.

And [00:21:00] like, he would just kind of like, let's just do it. So. All right. So I just emailed our newsletter

and said,

Hey, we're gonna do this session if anybody wants to show, show. And people showed and they came back and just became kind of a staple.

Natalie Nathanson: I love that.

I love it.

Hey, this is Natalie, your Shift and Thrive host. After chatting with lots of CEOs, one thing is crystal clear. Leveling up your company means having a killer Go-to-market strategy. That's what my crew at Magnitude Consulting does every day. If you're trying to step up your marketing game, whether it's strategizing, accelerating your pipeline, expanding into new markets, or getting into AI and automation, let's talk.

No pitch, no pressure. Just good conversation. Visit shift and thrive podcast.com/natalie to schedule a time. Can't wait to connect.

Natalie Nathanson: I wanna talk a bit more about kinda the, the macro environment that, uh, we're all [00:22:00] operating in. Because when I think of kind of the pace of, of change from, You know, ai, competitive landscape, just the general kind of noise and pressure, uh, in the world we're facing, You know, there's a lot of demands on any leader.

And so I'm curious,

You know, how are you seeing this showing up, uh, in your, uh, You know, the types of, uh, leaders that, that you work with and. Um, and You know, I wanna get into kind of what are some of the things people can be paying attention to, but curious, just kind of what are you seeing now and, and how is that taking form?

Kevin Bailey: It's a good question.

We work

with a lot of, a lot of software leaders. Um, a lot of them have AI products, some of them, some really successful AI products,

and.

AI does make more work for us so you can do more. So

you do

do more and you get more, uh, work on your plate. Ultimately, you're just moving [00:23:00] really fast. So I kind of think about it like a

race car,

like an F1 car or something, and it's

like, okay, an

F1 car's gotta be really fast. It also has to be super stable.

So, You know, you put wings on it, you create downforce, you, You know, you put great suspension on it. Really power, really sticky wheels so you can take turns at high speed.

And I

think it's a great analogy for tech leaders in AI right now. It's like you're

going super

fast, but it's real easy to be unstable and hit a wall and

just go

way down the wrong direction.

So I think teaching leaders how to slow down. How to become more mindful, how to be more decisive in their decisions and actions. How to trust their intuition a little bit more at speed. Um, like, You know, it's like, I think that the next decade is gonna reward leaders who are more psychologically stable because there's just more [00:24:00] opportunity for growth, more opportunity for problems,

Natalie Nathanson: I'm curious, what are the kind of tools in the arsenal, so to speak, to help someone who, uh, kinda needs to kinda rebalance, like reset that is kind of that, that race car that's maybe becoming more unstable. I know you talked a bit about that earlier, but is there kind of a, a set of, uh, types of, uh, of things or techniques to be looking at?

Kevin Bailey: I, I think the big one is the basics.

It's generic

and cliche, but I think getting a strong meditation practice in place is about the best thing you can do to stabilize your mindset.

From

there with that awareness, then you can do all the other tools

and techniques

that really help you reprogram. Um, but yeah, I would say if you don't have a meditation, if you're feeling unstable and you don't have a meditation practice, the best thing to do is a start one.

There are plenty apps. The way that I went about it was through transcendental meditation. I think transcendental meditation is fantastic. Great [00:25:00] program. You get a coach, a teacher, so I would say that's, that's probably my number one suggestion for somebody feeling unstable at high speed is same with me. I felt unstable at high speed meditation practice

really helped with

that. So I'd say that's step one. Um, obviously you come to the breath work sessions, it's a form of meditation that's a guaranteed to work. Breath work pretty much works for most everyone.

Meditation

can be a little more tricky and challenging.

Takes time. A lot of time, But I'd

say yeah,

meditation

and um,

yeah, if you are an AI leader moving at high speed, I think it's. Th This is tough to say and I think it's just a little tricky,

but

if you let your mental health get way outta whack and you're trying to lead a team

and trying to

build a product, your mental health issues get [00:26:00] reflected by your team and the product and. I think, You know, it's, it's kind of on us to keep that in mind as we build these companies. You, you,

if you're

the leader, you're hierarchically the energy flows down from you, obviously flows up from your team as well. But if you're getting unstable, it's gonna manifest throughout your team and.

Ultimately

in your product, and that's not something anyone wants, is to let their issues and traumas and challenges get reflected out in the marketplace.

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, it's, uh, you're making me think of a, a quote. We used to have this up, uh, in my, in our old office. Um, the speed of the leader is the speed of the gang. And it was a quote that I was always drawn to, and it always, to me, and earlier in my career meant kind of faster, right? Like, if I'm slow, then everyone's gonna be slow.

Um, and it took me time to realize that it goes in the opposite direction, right? Uh, if I'm rushing around and always [00:27:00] busy and, and all of that, that's, uh, that's felt by everybody. And that's not necessarily a positive. So I think

it's hard to find

kinda that, that sweet spot.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah.

Truth.

Natalie Nathanson: Um, You know, another topic I know we chatted about when we spoke, uh, previously, and this is, uh, kind of near and dear to me, is.

Um, You know the difference when, when a CEO or founder feels friction between what's good for them personally and kinda what, what's good for the business or what the business needs of them. When those two things are at odds, and I'm wondering if that's something that comes up, uh, and with the type of clients you work with and if there's any, uh, kind of techniques or ways of thinking about working through that.

Kevin Bailey: but I mean, you talk a little about sacrifice, You know, um, what sacrifices are you willing to make for your company? Uh, What sacrifice is the right level of sacrifice to make for your company when something doesn't align with you at a core level, um, or requires you to do something maybe that you're not comfortable with [00:28:00] doing.

It's different for everyone, and depending on your life, You know, the way your life is structured, whether you're single, have kids, that kind of stuff, uh, is important, um, to consider as well. You know, like your company's making you travel all the time, but it's like, You know, you're, it's impacting your family negatively. I kind of, as I was alluding to before, I think that your company is a reflection of your state. So if you're gonna make a decision that's going to trash your state don't have the tools to hold stable in whatever you're contemplating doing, I'd say don't do it.

You

may be able to do it, but if it, if it hurts your state, I think it's ultimately going to Create negative consequences down the road. I'm not a huge fan of just relentless

grinding unless you have

all the tools in place. There are people who are meant to grind and meant to just like gut it out. And their life is structured that way.

And [00:29:00] they

have, they know every tool. They're fantastic at recovery.

You know, take a professional athlete Yes. Like,

or

Special forces soldier or something like their job is to like gut it out. Um, and

that's cool

and there's a lot of salespeople that do that. But doing that without the tools to regulate your nervous system and recover effectively, you're headed straight for burnout and.

Again, as the leader, if you burn out, it's tough to keep the company going and strong.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah, sounds, reminds me of like the air mask analogy, right? That's, uh, cliche, but you can only take care of yourself. Uh, you can't take care of others until you take care of yourself. And I heard that for parenting, it seems. Uh, very similar, uh, for the business as well as thinking of, uh, like the athlete example.

Are you kinda gearing up for a big moment, a big game, or is this kind of your new normal? And so you can't just continue to kinda hustle your way through it. You need to find a new, a new way of working.

Kevin Bailey: Exactly.

Natalie Nathanson: I'm curious if you [00:30:00] have any views on, uh, the role of AI use, like personal AI use in, uh, for a leader, uh, kind of good or bad.

Kevin Bailey: It's a big topic for neuroscience right now. I think it's obviously a powerful tool. A lot of technology involves trade-offs, so if

you think

about

Google,

well,

it

started to depreciate the value of knowing. Knowledge off the top of your head. So people

maybe became

a little bit less, the, the optimized brain started allocating a little less resources to knowing facts.

If

you take, um,

something

more basic calculator obviously diminished people's ability to do arithmetic in their head. [00:31:00] AI right now is offering opportunity for us to diminish some of our capabilities around writing and some of our capabilities around logical

thinking

and hand that off to something else.

and the

brain will always optimize around

that,

You know, if it

can.

So this is one where, You know, maybe. Not knowing facts is not that important.

Maybe

not knowing

how to do arithmetic in your head. Is that important? Being able

to think

logically and write, it's pretty fundamental, so

I just

think

it

should be used with moderation

as

a personal assistant, so to speak.

Natalie Nathanson: I always think about like if the world just unplugged all of a sudden, right? Think about what you'd have left and making sure [00:32:00] that you feel comfortable with the, the skills that you have,

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. I mean, if you, if you lose your ability to think rationally and

make decisions

effectively, that's, that's not good for a leader.

Natalie Nathanson: Right.

Right.

Um, so I know Kevin, we've talked about a lot of areas, uh, kind of related to, to your business, but I'd like to, You know, hear a little bit more explicitly, um, about kind of the company itself And so like when founders, uh, or leadership teams come to you, like what are the things they're typically struggling with?

And kind of talk a little bit about the actual kind of the ways that, uh, that your team works with them.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, so again, high growth companies. Typically, uh, we've worked with. Hundreds of high growth startups at this point. Um, typically after a series A ish, You know, I've taken a lot of those companies, uh, not a lot, but we've taken a number of those companies through IPO and when there's a ton of pressure on a team to perform, You know, they got a board that's, that's really [00:33:00] intense.

They got, You know, giant sales goals to hit, start to look at yourself and your team as a corporate athlete

And

If somebody wants to show up consistently as

their very

best self, day in and day out to be brilliant every day, regardless of what You know, the environment is

giving 'em, that's something that is required of professional athletes.

They, they can't be up and

down.

That's a, that's an elite performer.

So

when teams need to have the elite performers, that's when they come to us and VCs and private equities send teams to us. It's like,

okay,

We don't want this to be a gamble. We want to, You know, we're shoring up every aspect, so let's shore up the team's mindset.

So that's typically when companies come to us and teams come to us, they wanna build an elite mindset. They want to, they wanna make sure that they don't self-sabotage stuff. You talked about imposter syndrome, et cetera. This is stuff where, You know, it's important enough to

bring in

somebody with a background

in performance

psychology or [00:34:00] neuroscience to help.

There are executive coaches out there that dabble in this stuff, but this is like all we do.

Um.

So, You know, we're specialists in that and, and it's, uh, yeah, it's a lot of fun. You know, it's like we can help people be in a really intense situation and enjoy it a lot more 'cause they don't feel so vulnerable to the environment.

Natalie Nathanson: Right. Right. I love that. Um, and I'm curious of, You know, when you recommend this specifically for the leader versus for a team, or is that kinda purely up to the client?

Kevin Bailey: I always recommend the leader needs to

do this. So,

uh, either doing it with their team or independently and then bringing it to their team.

Sometimes we get, uh, leaders

that come in,

they're like, Hey, You know, help my team with their mindset, but I'm not gonna do this. Uh, again, I

get energy. Coming

down hierarchically from the leader. It, it doesn't work.

So,

um, yeah, it's either start with the leader or start with the leader and the team.

But yeah, not a, it's not one of those things you're like, hey, You know, we're gonna bring in a sales coach to work with my AEs on some,

[00:35:00] um,

You know, sales angle. This is like, leader has to be involved for it to, for it to really resonate.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

I could see it being a very kind of impactful beyond kind of the outcome of the work itself, but like good kind of bonding, team building for the team to go through that with the leader. Right.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, exactly. And it, it, when done well, like it impacts everyone's lives, You know, their mental performance, coaching their kid before big game. Their, You know, helps them manage their real, their

dynamics

of their relationship better. You know, it's just the tools are,

uh,

effective.

It much more than just work.

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, do you have an example, like a before and after of either kind a, a leader or a whole team? Obviously without, without naming any names, but, uh. Uh, a story that, that, uh, that stands out for you of the, the impact.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, this is kind of public, so I can probably mention the leaders in the company.

Um, so there's a company, Greenlight Guru. It was one of our early [00:36:00] clients, and we came, we started working

with them

like right at the beginning.

Uh, so

they were operating out of a, You know, like a warehouse. And the two co-founders, uh, David and John, uh, both brilliant in their own, in their own regard.

David, CEO, John, basically the, the original founder the idea person, um, an engineer.

and

they, I weren't very exposed to this stuff and they were just kind of, You know,

running, running

the business the way they, they knew how, uh, David was very experienced in like seventh business or something.

And

I knew David and he kind of brought us

in to

work with the sales team, but I noticed there was like some dysfunction at

the executive

level and I was like, Hey, You know, I think I should work with you and John. I think I can help you guys. As I was noticing that it was like their partnership

was starting to really

get strained.

Kinda why I suggested it.

I was like, uh, so

I was like, all right. So David's like, yeah, sure, whatever, You know, and I started to work with [00:37:00] John and David and the tools that I was teaching them

started

to help them show up differently for each

other.

And Eventually healed the business partnership 'cause they were about to split and it probably would've broke the company.

Um, so when I got, they got a, You know, nice nine figure exit. And when they did, You know, John told me, he is like, Hey, You know, really grateful that you did this work with us. 'cause I I, I don't think we'd be here without the, this, this work. I

mean, I

don't think the company, I think the company would've, would've dissolved what he told me.

So I was like, cool.

You

Natalie Nathanson: that's a

pretty big impact.

Um, I'm curious, You know, how these kinds of concepts show up, uh, for you in, in parenting, um, because I know you mentioned having four kids that have kind of grown up in with you kind of running and, and starting businesses. [00:38:00] Um, and, uh, just any advice for, for other, uh, parents out there?

Kevin Bailey: I don't think I'm like a natural parent.

I

think I'm learning to be a better parent. I've learned to be a better parent. I think I'm, You

know,

Much more natural at business. I have a wonderful wife who's really helped

me through some

of this stuff, but I mean,

patience

and being mindful with your children is, I mean, work is not the proving ground. It is, You know, being in the. in the insanity on a weekend with four kids. You know, like each with their own egos and desires and, You know, little stuff that drives them crazy, wanting your attention in various ways.

That's, that's the, that's where the real metal, um, that's where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. So I

think

most importantly, the ability

to be settled

in a chaotic environment. That's been super [00:39:00] helpful.

I

think before when I had my first kid, I know I was only really stressed. Like I said, I felt like a zombie and I could barely pay attention.

But I feel like I'm, I'm equanimity, which is the ability to be totally centered. Like I'm very centered and stable in my family and I think that's

very

helpful for just the cast that presents with, with that many children. And I

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

Kevin Bailey: don't have, You know, four is a lot, but I know people have like nine or

Natalie Nathanson: I've got my hands full with two, so I, I feel

you.

It's like a, a mini venture, right? When you can't hire or fire anyone, you

Kevin Bailey: No,

You're stuck.

Natalie Nathanson: what you get and Yeah. Yep. Um, Kevin, I wanna take us on a little bit of a side step because I know you had mentioned previously that you're doing research in, uh, applied neuroscience and non-duality. Um, and I think depending on, You know, how people hear it, it can sound in a bit abstract or, or philosophical. Um, but I think it ties to some of the things you were talking about earlier around awareness. So wanted to [00:40:00] see if you could share, uh, a bit more about, You know, what you're doing here and kind what excites you about it.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah,

I'd love to, to share about that.

I

think, I, so I've been meditating for maybe 20 years about. I had heard of the concept

a

while back. You know, when I first meditation teacher in transitional meditation, they didn't call it that though. TM language is like the cosmic consciousness and universal consciousness and God consciousness. They, they use those words for it.

Um,

everybody's got different words for this.

And, and non-duality is just the academic word for, uh, basically enlightenment, which is a super loaded word, but it can be explained. And non-duality is somebody who has cultivated a lived experience day to day where there's not a giant distinction between their external environment themselves,[00:41:00]

meaning the,

if I'm the subject and everything else is the object.

I'm looking at it, sensing it, feeling it. The, the distinction between subject and object starts to dissolve. Therefore, these people feel immersed in their environment. High flow and every day people experience non-duality during periods of like intense physical activity. So like an athlete might feel it being in

the zone,

a surgeon might feel

it doing

surgery, people can feel it doing psychedelics.

So there's psychedelics that induce non-duality, but somebody who lives in non-duality, that feeling you get. as an athlete and intense situation, or as You know, a surgeon

doing their,

their craft at the highest level is always there, and that's persistent, non-dual awareness, which is a continuum. You know, it's,

it [00:42:00] starts at like a.

kind of a temporary bouncing back and forth type of situation to.

More joy, more bliss, less sense of a, of an independent self, all the way to the end of the spectrum, which is

where they actually lose their sense of self and they have no distinction between themselves and their environment. So subjects and object merge entirely that's pure and nonduality highest on the continuum. Um, that's a, that's a deep, deep experience.

Uh,

but

yeah, I

mean, I've, I've. I am on the early stage of the continuum,

um,

and it's incredible and it's wonderful, has challenges over time. When you meditate the default mode network of the brain, which is the part that's responsible for reflexive awareness, meaning [00:43:00] reflexive thinking, thinking about yourself.

Starts to dampen the default bone network is what's on, really flips on when you rest. So when you rest, the default bone network turns on. This is why you start asking yourself all these questions. What I do wrong today? All this mental head trash is coming at you from your default bone network. And again, meditation

just dampens

that down.

So if you meditate for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, 10,000 hours plus,

You

know, on brain scans, you're seeing a lot less activity in that network. At rest, and that's one of the things that allows people to start to slip into this non-dual awareness. The

most

important thing to understand about all of it is everyone has this.

It's just kind of a remembering it because we're born into non-dual consciousness. So like a baby has it,

You know,

they're not all in

their head.

They're kind of like observing things. So open monitoring meditation is what cultivates non-dual awareness. So as a baby is

just kinda

[00:44:00] looking around and you feel a baby hold a baby, they're like, ah, this is this beautiful energy

because they're just.

They're, they're basically enlightened. They're, they're just observing things. And somebody who's enlightened or in non-dual awareness is, is sitting back in their most primitive form of consciousness called pure awareness. They're just observing what's around them. Um, they're not lost in the mind, so they learn to differentiate between mental activity and observing that mental activity.

Most

humans are

lost in mental activity. Somebody in non-duality steps back from that into that baby awareness or baby mind observes their mental activity. And, um, it's very blissful. Lots of serotonin because the mind is dualistic. Dualistic is, everything gets compared.

The mind can't be non-dual. It's, it's 100% dualistic.

It compares, creates preferences and then creates conflicts to create, to, to get those preferences. It's like all the mind does. So somebody in [00:45:00] non-dual reality steps back and observes that functioning and sort of starts to like be a little skeptical of their brain or less.

Natalie Nathanson: Of fascinating. I can definitely see the benefit as you're talking about it, knowing my own brain, I think, uh, it, it will be hard to attain, uh, but I guess, You know, if myself or, or someone else wants to learn more, what do you recommend? Like what? Like non-duality for beginners. Something to read, something to kinda grasp the concepts or, or try it.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah. I mean, the first thing, we'll just do a little exercise with you and, and then, You know, I can tell 'em resources, but,

uh, all right.

you down for

Natalie Nathanson: Sure, sure. I'll be, I'll be

Kevin Bailey: just do this with you and do with anyone. Anyone else's listening. Okay. So if you just sit here and

you kind of

just get relaxed,

right? Uh, describe something

either in your internal environment or external environment.

That's

arising right now

in

your field

of consciousness.[00:46:00]

Natalie Nathanson: Something I see or something mentally.

Kevin Bailey: could be anything. either.

Natalie Nathanson: I'm, uh, looking out the window and

thinking about it's, uh, it's, I'm enjoying the fact that the weather's warming up here in Boston.

Uh,

I was doing that to try to relax, uh, for this exercise and at the same time thinking about, yes, I can sit back and relax, but also very aware that I am hosting a podcast and still want a smile on my face.

And so all those thoughts, uh, all at once.

Kevin Bailey: great awareness.

do

those do those thoughts just arise are you trying to think?

Natalie Nathanson: Uh,

it just arose

Kevin Bailey: Okay.

So was

there any, did you have to put any effort into those thoughts arising and they just kind of happened?

Natalie Nathanson: and it just happened.

Kevin Bailey: Okay. And seeing out the window, did it take any effort?

Natalie Nathanson: No.

Kevin Bailey: [00:47:00] Okay.

Step back into like your, as primitive again as, as you can like describe what you're seeing in front of you as primi as you can.

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, I see a screen. I see my notes. I see your face and mine on the screen.

Kevin Bailey: Okay, so you see a screen. What shape is it?

Natalie Nathanson: Rectangular

Kevin Bailey: I see a

rectangle.

Natalie Nathanson: with lots of tabs open on my browser,

Kevin Bailey: So as you describe something more pritt, it's even less effortful, right?

Natalie Nathanson: correct.

Kevin Bailey: So if I look in front of myself and I just see colors, that's really primitive, right? It takes no effort. Describe what you see in front of you in as much detail as

possible.

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, I see, I see a window. [00:48:00] I see some artwork on the wall behind me. I do see, uh, the screen, uh, the rectangular screen. Uh, I see my notepad, uh, in front of me with my, my multicolored pens, uh, for highlighting what needs to get done immediately versus later. Uh, I see the blinking cursor.

Uh, actually lots of stuff around me because I have a, a very full desk.

Kevin Bailey: Perfect. Um, did that take effort?

Natalie Nathanson: Uh, not effort, but it did take some scanning.

Kevin Bailey: Took a

little effort, right?

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah.

Kevin Bailey: Less or more effort than saying you just see a rectangle in front of you, right?

Natalie Nathanson: Correct. Well, and there's no end to how much I could have described, so, right. More effort, the more detail I go into and, uh, picking out different components.

Kevin Bailey: You

could have got real detailed, right? You could have got super focused.

Natalie Nathanson: Oh yeah, we could have been on this podcast for another hour just talking

Kevin Bailey: eh, Could have went into the science of how light works or whatever.

Right. Um, [00:49:00] so it's, so the reason I did that is to help you understand that different levels of thinking require different levels of effort. Right. As

executives, we burn a ton of energy thinking

and

we spend a lot of effort thinking. A lot of times about ourselves and how situations impact ourselves personally.

The reason

I did that exercise as well is I want you

to understand

that there is a level of awareness that

is completely

childlike, innocent, and requires no effort at all, which is

seeing colors and shapes in front of you that you're not labeling. And if

you can understand

that. Then you can start to understand that your brain is a tool and you can shift it into gear, like you shift a car into gear and you can flip it into neutral.

at will[00:50:00]

and somebody who is a non-dual awareness See shapes and colors and movement. Most of the time they choose to use their brain when they want. And they have plenty me mental faculties, like Michael Singer who wrote, um, surrender Experiments, a really popular book in the spiritual space. He built a unicorn.

He did it, um, in non-dual consciousness. So it doesn't make you any less effective, not

using your

brain all the

time. But what

people in that state do is they shift themselves into seeing colors and shapes and movement again. Like they, they're just not thinking very often. And then

when, when something happens, they use their brain and in fact their brain's more powerful because it's not thinking about themselves as much and it's not used so much.

So it's like it's, a, it's ready to go. It's fully recovered. So that little exercise, You know, obviously something can do on their own, but it's, uh, it's starting

to realize you

don't have to live [00:51:00] in your mental faculties.

You can live

in that pure awareness that just notices things arising effortlessly and doesn't think about them very much.

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Nathanson: Huh. I love that. Well, thank you for taking me through it. I think of, uh, kind of peeling back at Onion and Right. The more you learn, the more there is to learn. But I think many of us have heard like, we are not our thoughts. Um, but that can be a hard thing to, uh. Uh, to actually experience versus kind of, to, to have a thought and then kind of move it aside, uh, rather

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, you did a great,

Natalie Nathanson: or dominate right?

The situation.

Kevin Bailey: you

did a great job noticing your thoughts and obviously You know, You know,

you notice your

emotions, you start to notice all these things 'cause you're the awareness, noticing it. You're not like the thought. So it's like you start

to notice, oh, these

emotions, these thoughts, this.

Environment around me. A, a good book to read, um, that I recommend. It's funny 'cause it was written by the same author who wrote The Secret, which was like a popular book on law of attraction, which had, has fans and critics. But, um, she went on a journey

for like

20 years after that. Then wrote the [00:52:00] book, the Greatest Secret, which is about awareness and about non-dual.

and I think she quotes, quotes, a lot of experts in the field. It's a really good book for a lay person wanting to like, wrap their head around the topic. Um, and then, uh, there's a gentleman, David Bingham, who's the person who kind of helped her get her head around it. He runs

a community.

Um, he's this,

uh, little,

little British dude, um, who takes care of his mom with Alzheimer's, but I would

say he's

very far down the continuum he is a wonderful human.

Um. He's got YouTube stuff,

You know, actually you

can see him kind of like take people through exercises to get them to like call it self-realization, but to start to

move into the

continuum and just like conversations on YouTube. Pretty fascinating. But those are two resources if you're curious about it.

Natalie Nathanson: Oh, that's great. Thank you. Yeah, I will check that out. We'll put, uh, put some links in the show notes for others who are interested as well.

But I find it, I find it fascinating and, And so much more to learn.

Kevin Bailey: Yeah, it

Natalie Nathanson: I know we only have a, uh, a few minutes left, but would love to, uh, close by asking you, uh, maybe [00:53:00] something a bit more introspective is, uh, what's the, what would you say is the best piece of advice you've been given or the one that's, uh, in a stuck with you the most?

Kevin Bailey: You know, that changes over time? I'd say, uh, most recently. The best advice he's given to us, uh, gentleman, who's my executive coach is Bob Gleason. He's had like five exits and an IPO super smart business person. He is like, just very much like Kevin. You gotta take business day to day. Like stuff changes all the time, You know, it's like just

day

to day simple. Don't get too far out in the future. Definitely don't get too attached to

the past.

Take a day to day, be in the moment, what's happening in your business today, make the best decisions you can today and forget about it.

It's

kind of like my best business advice I've had recently, last few years.

Natalie Nathanson: Yeah. Well, thank you. I love that. Uh, and as we wrap up today's conversation, if listeners wanna get in touch, what's the best way to reach you?

Kevin Bailey: Uh, dream fuel.com or kevin@dreamfuel.com.

Natalie Nathanson: Perfect.

Uh, [00:54:00] well thank you Kevin. I love this conversation and, and enjoyed so much of what you shared, uh, but from hearing about your journey, uh, some of the, uh, kind of advice and perspectives on, uh, mental performance, uh, the non-duality, uh, exercise, which I have some, some homework to dive into. Uh, so thank you so much for everything you shared.

Kevin Bailey: Thank you so much, Natalie. It was wonderful talking to you.

Natalie Nathanson: Thank you, you as well. And thank you too to everybody who's listening. If today's conversation sparked something new for you, and I'm pretty sure that it did, please pass this along to another leader. We know that insights like this fuel fresh thinking and help all of us drive real transformation in our companies and in ourselves.

So thank you again, Kevin, and this has been another amazing conversation on Shift and Thrive. I'll see you all next time.

That's a wrap for this week's episode. For show notes and more visit Shift and thrive podcast.com. A special thank you to our sponsor, magnitude Consulting, bringing you the thinking power of a growth [00:55:00] consultancy and the getting it done Power of a full service marketing agency to help B2B companies fuel their growth.

For more information on magnitude and to get your complimentary transformation readiness assessment, visit magnitude consulting.com/. Get ready. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.